Purpose of Education

[Palehose13]

As some of you may know, I am in grad school....again. I guess I'm hoping that I can trade 3 masters for a doctorate. :shrug:

Anyway, I've been doing a lot of reading and analyzing this week and one thing I found interesting was the paradigm shift from "education is for acquiring knowledge" to "education is the way to get a job". I am a firm believer that our educational system the way it is now is not working. I also believe that it needs a major overhaul in order to be successful in today's society. So I pose this question to you:

What is the purpose of education? Why do we send our children to school? What do we expect from schooling?

I have more questions after that, but let's start we these first...unless this is boring as hell and you decide not to participate.

[Spider_Pig]

I don't feel like my education is to make me smarter or to acquire knowlege. Pretty much the whole purpose is to get a good job and make a living is the best I can put it. It seems like my high school is just trying to move me along to college as quickly and orderly as possible. It's all just one big staircase... Or I could play sports and just glide right by... :shrug:

[1951Campbell]

PH13, you know what I'm gonna say.

A liberal arts eduaction prepares you to do anything. I've been a bagger, humor newspaper owner, biotech drone, and lawyer. I cared and do care about history and politics. And I could do it all because I got a broad, liberal arts education.

As for jobs, I've never been to a job interview where I couldn't make a case why I should have the job...becasue no matter what the job was, the broad liberal arts education always gave me a hook.

So when I hear that bullshit about "acquring knowledge" in opposition to getting a job, that pisses me off. If you get your Linaneus, Euclid, Darwin, Plato, algebra, verb conjugations, writng skills, logic skills...really, what can't you do?

If one focuses on that shit, you can't be stopped. I realize the world needs ditch-diggers too, but if K-12 education tried to push all the St. John's stuff I've been indoctrinated into, there would be a lot less people resorting to being ditch-diggers. Jobs are ephemeral...acquiring knowledge will always keep the mortgage paid, whether you're writing code, appraising, building stuff, painting, participating in the information economy, or what have you.

If it turns out after a K-12 education you don't have the chops to do any of that fancy brainwork, fine.

What do I expect from schooling? Well, my kid's not in school, but...I expect her learn the skills above without a lot of hippie/Marxist bullshit, and I expect her to do it in a school that approximates the the private school experience I had about 15-20 years ago. So I realize that's not totally realistic.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Campbell, that pretty much says it all.

I would add that I think parents should get to choose where their child goes to school. Vouchers are a great step in that direction. For 10 years I have been paying my property taxes and private school tuition and that really bites...

[Palehose13]

PH13, you know what I'm gonna say.

A liberal arts eduaction prepares you to do anything. I've been a bagger, humor newspaper owner, biotech drone, and lawyer. I cared and do care about history and politics. And I could do it all because I got a broad, liberal arts education.

As for jobs, I've never been to a job interview where I couldn't make a case why I should have the job...becasue no matter what the job was, the broad liberal arts education always gave me a hook.

So when I hear that bullshit about "acquring knowledge" in opposition to getting a job, that pisses me off. If you get your Linaneus, Euclid, Darwin, Plato, algebra, verb conjugations, writng skills, logic skills...really, what can't you do?

If one focuses on that shit, you can't be stopped. I realize the world needs ditch-diggers too, but if K-12 education tried to push all the St. John's stuff I've been indoctrinated into, there would be a lot less people resorting to being ditch-diggers. Jobs are ephemeral...acquiring knowledge will always keep the mortgage paid, whether you're writing code, appraising, building stuff, painting, participating in the information economy, or what have you.

If it turns out after a K-12 education you don't have the chops to do any of that fancy brainwork, fine.

What do I expect from schooling? Well, my kid's not in school, but...I expect her learn the skills above without a lot of hippie/Marxist bullshit, and I expect her to do it in a school that approximates the the private school experience I had about 15-20 years ago. So I realize that's not totally realistic.

Ok, but how deos this happen? How would you structure school and how do you ensure that the school is the best environment for all students to learn?

Campbell, that pretty much says it all.

I would add that I think parents should get to choose where their child goes to school. Vouchers are a great step in that direction. For 10 years I have been paying my property taxes and private school tuition and that really bites...

You do have a choice of where your children go to school, you choose what school district you live in. It is your choice to send your child to a private school and if it is a religious school, you are paying tuition for your child to obtain the religious education you want them to have. Vouchers are not a step in the right direction.

I don't want this to become private vs. public schools. I am talking about public education and how do we make it work? Everyone complains about it, but what should be done to improve it? I am looking for specifics.

[SABRSox]

The first purpose of education should be to make all students good, educated citizens.

After that, I say it's up to the students as to which kind of education they want. Personally, I'd promote the broadest possible education, as the skills you need for most jobs you end up learning (or at the very least re-train) on the job.

[Palehose13]

The first purpose of education should be to make all students good, educated citizens.

After that, I say it's up to the students as to which kind of education they want. Personally, I'd promote the broadest possible education, as the skills you need for most jobs you end up learning (or at the very least re-train) on the job.

So in your eyes, is the current structure of public education the way to do that?

[3D23]

The purpose of education is to gain knowledge. To educate in order to enlighten.

My children go to school because I do not feel equiped to do it myself. They attend public schools in order to learn; not only intelligence, but social skills, and life skills.

I expect fairness in educating, clear lines of communication when problems arise, or you just want to tell me my child is exceeding your expectations, equality in access to material, compassion for each student's circumstances, and patience for each child's ability to learn.

Now, a question for YOU teacher. :D

What do you expect from your students, and your parents respectively?

Here is what you can expect from me, as a parent.

I will encourage my child to learn, find their own solutions to a problem, and to apply themselves each and eery day. (However, I have living in my household a child with a major case of senioritis, I have no idea how teachers put up with this daily) I will always take a phone call, and I ALWAYS attend conferences to make myself visible and accountable for my children and their behavior, and will support the teacher in whatever way neccessary to assist you in doing your job. Ask and ye shall receive.

[Palehose13]

The purpose of education is to gain knowledge. To educate in order to enlighten.

My children go to school because I do not feel equiped to do it myself. They attend public schools in order to learn; not only intelligence, but social skills, and life skills.

I expect fairness in educating, clear lines of communication when problems arise, or you just want to tell me my child is exceeding your expectations, equality in access to material, compassion for each student's circumstances, and patience for each child's ability to learn.

Now, a question for YOU teacher. :D

What do you expect from your students, and your parents respectively?

Here is what you can expect from me, as a parent.

I will encourage my child to learn, find their own solutions to a problem, and to apply themselves each and eery day. (However, I have living in my household a child with a major case of senioritis, I have no idea how teachers put up with this daily) I will always take a phone call, and I ALWAYS attend conferences to make myself visible and accountable for my children and their behavior, and will support the teacher in whatever way neccessary to assist you in doing your job. Ask and ye shall receive.

I expect clear evidence of growth from my students and I hope for support for the parents.


These are all fair reasons for education. So, are we achieving what you want? If not, what should be done to make or current education system more effective? I'm not asking about individual classrooms, but the entire United States educational system.

[3D23]

I expect clear evidence of growth from my students and I hope for support for the parents.


These are all fair reasons for education. So, are we achieving what you want? If not, what should be done to make or current education system more effective? I'm not asking about individual classrooms, but the entire United States educational system.


I don't know that I can effectively answer that question, as my mileage varies greatly from many areas of the country. We have one of the best public school systems in the country, and I am really quite happy (barring a few exceptions) with where my children go to school.

I wouldn't even begin to know the problems affecting the inner-city schools, but one thing I do think; moving kids around to other schools won't work. If you have a voucher system, it doesn't fix the schools that are broken, but again, how do you fix it? I think quite a bit of the problem is children coming from homes that do not put a strong emphasis on the importance of education, and how do you improve the image if no one really cares? I think an awful lot of undo pressure is put onto teachers to do more with less, but one thing that really irks me is, where is the pressure on parents to tow the line, as much if not more so, than the teachers and schools?

You have to teach a culture to place value where they have none, to achieve a desired outcome with an entirely different demographic group. Maybe the focus needs to be more on family than student? I dunno, grasping at straws here.

[Palehose13]

I suppose I should clarify why I started this thread.

I truly do want to be a part of educational reform. I have ideas about what needs to change, but I really want some input from others. I have my colleagues and people at school, but I am looking for other perspectives and perhaps you can help me see things that I don't see in the trenches.

I'm not looking for an argument. I am looking for collaboration. Y'all dig? :)

[fquaye14ten]

unless you want to enter architecture, engineering, investment banking, or hard science fields, you're pretty much money with your lib arts shit

why do you think suzie sample can tell mummy and daddy she's an anthro major

cuz mommy and daddy know that she's going to spend her life writing tps reports, not fucking pgymies.

it's all about what you can make money with, and like campbell said, lib arts is the best way to get a job. period. especially if you're at a good uni, which compounds it--it doesn't matter about going to a good university b/c of a better education--it matters b/c it's important to getting jobs.

who cares...leave the acquiring knowledge shit to the genii like myself (and chips) and leave the blah blah blah but let's make money to the rest of you silly billies

[Palehose13]

I don't know that I can effectively answer that question, as my mileage varies greatly from many areas of the country. We have one of the best public school systems in the country, and I am really quite happy (barring a few exceptions) with where my children go to school.

I wouldn't even begin to know the problems affecting the inner-city schools, but one thing I do think; moving kids around to other schools won't work. If you have a voucher system, it doesn't fix the schools that are broken, but again, how do you fix it? I think quite a bit of the problem is children coming from homes that do not put a strong emphasis on the importance of education, and how do you improve the image if no one really cares? I think an awful lot of undo pressure is put onto teachers to do more with less, but one thing that really irks me is, where is the pressure on parents to tow the line, as much if not more so, than the teachers and schools?

You have to teach a culture to place value where they have none, to achieve a desired outcome with an entirely different demographic group. Maybe the focus needs to be more on family than student? I dunno, grasping at straws here.


These are all very valid concerns, but even in your first post you suggested that schools should teach life skills and social skills along with basic education. Granted, different communities will have varying needs in regards to these skills. I'm not looking for a cookie-cutter, one-size fits all system...we have that right now and it was based upon the assembly line model of the industrial revolution.

I value your input and it is fine if you are grasping at straws. These are issues I think about daily and struggle with finding an answer...and I have 9 years of experience and a masters! I will say that I think one of the first things we need to do is get the government out of our schools.

[3D23]

I couldn't agree more. Over-zealous legislators, no matter how well intentioned, have turned the education system on its ear.

Here is something we do with our clients (human services) we provide basic services, and follow our families to make sure children are getting shots, physicals, dental visits, all basic human needs; parents, as well. One thing we do require of our clients? Attendance at classes called "Parents as Partners". It basically gives parents tools they need to become better parents, and to give them every opportunity to succeed. Yes, we get some that simply go through the motions, but if we help one family for every five that attend, we have accomplished something. Changing the course of generational poverty, welfare, and giving them hope is what we aim for.

:shrug:

[Palehose13]

unless you want to enter architecture, engineering, investment banking, or hard science fields, you're pretty much money with your lib arts shit

why do you think suzie sample can tell mummy and daddy she's an anthro major

cuz mommy and daddy know that she's going to spend her life writing tps reports, not fucking pgymies.

it's all about what you can make money with, and like campbell said, lib arts is the best way to get a job. period. especially if you're at a good uni, which compounds it--it doesn't matter about going to a good university b/c of a better education--it matters b/c it's important to getting jobs.

who cares...leave the acquiring knowledge shit to the genii like myself (and chips) and leave the blah blah blah but let's make money to the rest of you silly billies


If you wouldn't mind indulging my idea in its infancy, I am thinking that we should go to a Montessori K-8 approach and then have something like "magnet" high schools. Not magnet as in tracking, but magnet as in students get to pick the school that emphasizes what they are really interested in. There will be a base set of "life skill" classes that every school will offer, but if one is in a tech school, the math and science will be geared toward uses of math and science in technology, if one is in a human service school...same thing, business school, etc. There are a lot of kinks to iron out and it my idea is in the infant stages, but this is something that I think may be able to work.

IMO, we need to do away with "required amount of time in school" (Japanese students actually spend less time in school than American students do) and the standardized required courses. I think this is one driving force ruining a child's desire to learn.

I couldn't agree more. Over-zealous legislators, no matter how well intentioned, have turned the education system on its ear.

Here is something we do with our clients (human services) we provide basic services, and follow our families to make sure children are getting shots, physicals, dental visits, all basic human needs; parents, as well. One thing we do require of our clients? Attendance at classes called "Parents as Partners". It basically gives parents tools they need to become better parents, and to give them every opportunity to succeed. Yes, we get some that simply go through the motions, but if we help one family for every five that attend, we have accomplished something. Changing the course of generational poverty, welfare, and giving them hope is what we aim for.

:shrug:

Sounds like you work for an excellent organization.

[3D23]

If you wouldn't mind indulging my idea in its infancy, I am thinking that we should go to a Montessori K-8 approach and then have something like "magnet" high schools. Not magnet as in tracking, but magnet as in students get to pick the school that emphasizes what they are really interested in. There will be a base set of "life skill" classes that every school will offer, but if one is in a tech school, the math and science will be geared toward uses of math and science in technology, if one is in a human service school...same thing, business school, etc. There are a lot of kinks to iron out and it my idea is in the infant stages, but this is something that I think may be able to work.

IMO, we need to do away with "required amount of time in school" (Japanese students actually spend less time in school than American students do) and the standardized required courses. I think this is one driving force ruining a child's desire to learn.


:worship: :salute: :notworthy:

Like my dad always said, the world needs ditch diggers, too. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be educated, but honestly, if my son wants to become an engineer, why are you making him dissect a frog? If my daughter wants to be a journalist, what good is calculus going to do her?


(These are examples, not actual case studies)

I do work for a very good agency, and we are NOT run by the state. We are monitored, and receive funding grants through public and private entities, but we are not DHS, which is another abomination of the government. We are audited and have checks and balances, but I think the freedom we have enables us to gear our programs for the most benefit.

[Palehose13]

:worship: :salute: :notworthy:

So I take it that you think I'm on the right track. I'm kicking around writing an article for an educational journal (and then maybe a book) with my ideas. I do fear that perhaps I will get shunned from the educational arena, but if that happens I can just be a rancher at my girlfriend's horse farm. :D

[3D23]

So I take it that you think I'm on the right track. I'm kicking around writing an article for an educational journal (and then maybe a book) with my ideas. I do fear that perhaps I will get shunned from the educational arena, but if that happens I can just be a rancher at my girlfriend's horse farm. :D

I think you might be surprised with the amount of support you would garner. After the inital shock, I think it is something that opens the lanes for an honest dialect into what education needs.

Besides, horses need teachers, too, right?

:D

[Palehose13]

I think you might be surprised with the amount of support you would garner. After the inital shock, I think it is something that opens the lanes for an honest dialect into what education needs.

Besides, horses need teachers, too, right?

:D

LOL, my gf would teach the horses. I would pick up their shit.

I guess the system that I am formulating goes along with both "education for knowledge" and "education for career". Montessori would take care of the former and secondary would take care of the latter. The way I see "education for knowledge" was pre-industrial revolution when a child's career path was pretty much set. Now we do need to prepare our youth for the work world even though we would love for them to learn just for the sake of learning.

I have to get to bed. I look forward to more conversation abotu this later (if y'all would indulge me).

***This is how I am after class, all reflective and shit. :omg:

[ewokpelts]

I joined late, and I'll respond to the other stuff as I go through this, but in MY opinion:

Get the damm kids to know how to read and write at non-retard levels.
6th grade reading level should NOT be the national average.

If you can comprehend the written word, as well as produce sentences, we'll all be better off.

You do have a choice of where your children go to school, you choose what school district you live in.
Quality of Education should NOT be determined by where you live.
And just cuz you live in a fancy rich suburb DOSENT mean your kids are going to thrive in that fancy starship enterprise highschool paid for by your high proerty taxes.
Ask the kids in Columbine.

I expect clear evidence of growth from my students and I hope for support for the parents.


These are all fair reasons for education. So, are we achieving what you want? If not, what should be done to make or current education system more effective? I'm not asking about individual classrooms, but the entire United States educational system.

My solution? Fuck standarized tests. And make sure they can read and write. adding would help too.

[maurice]

IMO, edumacation should focus on skills more than substantive knowledge.

Schools taught me how to read, write, compose, research, draft, compute, etc. These skills are extremely valuable.

Most of my substantive knowledge was not learned in school. However, I used my school-learned skills to acquire the knowledge.

Much of the substantive knowledge I was taught in school was wrong, dated, or repetitive anyway. I'd estimate that more than half of the things we did in class were a total waste of time.

An underrated aspect of school is socialization. It's a great opportunity for kids to learn to socialize with other kids their own age who are from a variety of different backgrounds . . . well, at least it's that way in some communities.

[fquaye14ten]

If you wouldn't mind indulging my idea in its infancy, I am thinking that we should go to a Montessori K-8 approach and then have something like "magnet" high schools. Not magnet as in tracking, but magnet as in students get to pick the school that emphasizes what they are really interested in. There will be a base set of "life skill" classes that every school will offer, but if one is in a tech school, the math and science will be geared toward uses of math and science in technology, if one is in a human service school...same thing, business school, etc. There are a lot of kinks to iron out and it my idea is in the infant stages, but this is something that I think may be able to work.

IMO, we need to do away with "required amount of time in school" (Japanese students actually spend less time in school than American students do) and the standardized required courses. I think this is one driving force ruining a child's desire to learn.



Sounds like you work for an excellent organization.

if i had to pick what i wanted to focus on when I was in HS i would be a lawyer right now.

sorry val, but i don't really support this

[samram]

I think maurice makes a good point. It's not so much about knowledge acquisition, but teaching students how to acquire knowledge and then present and use it. The skills he refers to will help to both enlighten students and prepare them to excel in almost any field.

I can't offer an informed opinion about whether the current system is doing this because I don't have kids and have been out of school for a while. However, judging by the nOObs that start, research and writing skills (except in a few select college and grad school programs) don't seem to be a focus at any level of education, but I don't know that for sure.

[Palehose13]

if i had to pick what i wanted to focus on when I was in HS i would be a lawyer right now.

sorry val, but i don't really support this

Not necessarily, you could have went into criminal justice and found out that you really didn't like it...and switch. Kinda like what I did when I was in pre-med in college.

What are kids gaining with the system we currently have in place?

I think maurice makes a good point. It's not so much about knowledge acquisition, but teaching students how to acquire knowledge and then present and use it. The skills he refers to will help to both enlighten students and prepare them to excel in almost any field.

I can't offer an informed opinion about whether the current system is doing this because I don't have kids and have been out of school for a while. However, judging by the nOObs that start, research and writing skills (except in a few select college and grad school programs) don't seem to be a focus at any level of education, but I don't know that for sure.

I agree with that, but how do we do that and how is it measured? In order to be successful this way, we need to get out of the standardized test, grade-based evaluation, and "why don't my kids have homework?" mentality as a society.

[samram]

I agree with that, but how do we do that and how is it measured? In order to be successful this way, we need to get out of the standardized test, grade-based evaluation, and "why don't my kids have homework?" mentality as a society.

I can agree with that. I think evaluation of programs and personnel is a problem throughout government. I would imagine that teachers and schools are evaluated based simply on standardized test passage rates, which is probably not good for either the teachers or the students. Getting rid of NCLB would be a huge first step.

As for how to measure, I'm not sure. It seems to me that the number of people who have real input into school policies and processes is fairly small and restricted to people inside the system. Outside advice doesn't seem to be much appreciated (other than this thread :) ). There's a certain disconnect that will exist when you have an insider run system trying to prepare people to study or work in thousands of different fields.

[fquaye14ten]

Not necessarily, you could have went into criminal justice and found out that you really didn't like it...and switch. Kinda like what I did when I was in pre-med in college.

What are kids gaining with the system we currently have in place?

knowing how "always right" i was in high school, it would have been hard to change horses in midstream

[Spider_Pig]

knowing how "always right" i was in high school, it would have been hard to change horses in midstreamAs a current high school student, I am always right.:hello:

[SFS04]

Val one idea to that would be to keep a high school that is closer to our current system for kids who are unsure what they'd want to focus on.

Shit, I even did my entire bachelor's degree in a field that as an adult I have no interest in pursuing.

when I was in 8th grade I signed up for a trial alternative ed program at my school. It was hands down the best experience of my life. I went from a very shy person who literally would not look at people when I talked to them, and hated school, to actually being happy when my mom knocked on my door to wake me up every morning.

The setup was that for the first four periods of the day, you'd go to a separate wing of the school. there, the two teachers and two teaching assts would cover your four core subjects. However, instead of saying, 1 period on math, one on english, etc. they could break it up however they wanted.

A big thing they did was they would come up with topics, and allow us to study ANYTHING in that topic. Our end of the year project was to turn the wing into a "museum" with a room about the 60s, a room on the 70s, and a room on the 80s. We were assigned a decade and each had to make an exhibit on whatever we wanted as long as it occured or was a hot topic in that decade. I was assigned to the 70s, and because I was really into music, I made the corner of the room into a disco and had disco records playing.

We were also allowed to play and socialize when our work was finished. There was a nintendo in one room, so say you had 30 minutes to do a math worksheet and you finished it in 15, you could play nintendo or hang out with other kids that were finished. You were rarely told to sit quietly at your desk.

We were offered a lot of responsibility and trust. Another big project we did, that EVERYONE was so excited about, was we were split up into groups of like 3 or 4 and told to research a vacation that would cost less than $1000 a person and plan the whole thing out as well as create a way for the students to raise enough money to cover everyone to go. then we'd present it to the class, and take a vote, and actually go on the trip. When you tell a 14 year old that you trust them to design and plan a trip, they really will step up to the challenge. I remember my classmates and I felt really important that we were allowed to do that. We ended up taking a bus to the Poconos (I grew up in upstate NY) and went mountain biking one day, whitewater rafting one day, and then to Hershey Park the third. It was unbelievably fun--the teachers and adults really did enjoy hanging out with the kids and we all honestly trusted them. They were huge role models to me at that time in my life.

Other minor things we did was stuff like go on ropes courses, hikes, lots of like team building activities. At the start of the school year we'd get mocked a lot by the kids in regular school--they said we all had to go to alternative school because we must have problems and stuff (my mother had signed me up because she wanted me to have better self esteem and to try and be less shy, guess it worked) but by the end of the year I knew of a lot of jealous people!

Sorry that was so long but I thought to the people participating in this discussion it might be interesting to hear a first hand view from a student who attended an alternative school. As you can probably tell I am a huge proponent of them when done right and if I do have kids I very much would want to send them to a similar program rather than traditional current methods.

[maurice]

There is not a formalized pre-law curriculum. Quite the opposite. You can take whatever you want before law school.

If I had to design a pre-law curriculum, it would have nothing to do with criminal justice and political science, and everything to do with research and writing. I did a ton of research and writing in undergrad, and it put me several steps ahead of most of my 1L classmates.

Bonus: If you change your mind, your training is not specialized. You can apply your skills in a number of different fields.

[Myrtle]

Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I've always felt that the underlying purpose of education was to acquire knowledge and that the need/desire to "get a job" with that education is just a symptom of the desire to learn.

So, what's wrong with applying a practical stance to the "go to school to learn and be fulfilled" paradigm? I haven't been in grad school long, but I can tell you 95% of the people in my program are looking to get a job when they are done. But that same 95% of those people also have a strong desire to learn and to be part of something bigger than themselves. Maybe this doesn't apply at the undergrad level, but it seems to me that when a student makes it through undergrad level, that student is looking for self actualization rather than just a job.

[SFS04]

In my grad program currently (I am 2/3rds done and wrap it up this May) I have found that half the classes are practical application classes--the "get a job" skills--and half are thinking and debating classes. I find those to be a lot more enjoyable. In fact knock on wood but I am actually enjoying school a lot more this semester. Maybe because with the thinking/debating classes there is less homework :clapper:

[Palehose13]

knowing how "always right" i was in high school, it would have been hard to change horses in midstream

Maybe that would have changed going through a K-8 motessori program. :shrug: Of course, I would have a "liberal arts" school also.

There is not a formalized pre-law curriculum. Quite the opposite. You can take whatever you want before law school.

If I had to design a pre-law curriculum, it would have nothing to do with criminal justice and political science, and everything to do with research and writing. I did a ton of research and writing in undergrad, and it put me several steps ahead of most of my 1L classmates.


True. Of my lawyer friends, one has a BS in Engineering, one a BS in Biology-Chemistry, and the other a BS in International Finance.

Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I've always felt that the underlying purpose of education was to acquire knowledge and that the need/desire to "get a job" with that education is just a symptom of the desire to learn.

So, what's wrong with applying a practical stance to the "go to school to learn and be fulfilled" paradigm? I haven't been in grad school long, but I can tell you 95% of the people in my program are looking to get a job when they are done. But that same 95% of those people also have a strong desire to learn and to be part of something bigger than themselves. Maybe this doesn't apply at the undergrad level, but it seems to me that when a student makes it through undergrad level, that student is looking for self actualization rather than just a job.

So what about the kids that don't want to learn just to acquire knowledge? Do they not have to go to school? I am trying to focus on K-12 and not college level.

[StockdaleforVeep]

In my grad program currently (I am 2/3rds done and wrap it up this May) I have found that half the classes are practical application classes--the "get a job" skills--and half are thinking and debating classes. I find those to be a lot more enjoyable. In fact knock on wood but I am actually enjoying school a lot more this semester. Maybe because with the thinking/debating classes there is less homework :clapper:

Boy are u in for a lot of F's in those classes

You do know you need to debate for long times and have, you know, like credible cited sources right, not to mention you just suck at public debate, or debate period

-fin

Maybe that would have changed going through a K-8 motessori program. :shrug: Of course, I would have a "liberal arts" school also.



True. Of my lawyer friends, one has a BS in Engineering, one a BS in Biology-Chemistry, and the other a BS in International Finance.



So what about the kids that don't want to learn just to acquire knowledge? Do they not have to go to school? I am trying to focus on K-12 and not college level.

It should be mandatory as it is for kids up untill adulthood(or 16 if u want to be what it is now) to go to school

Honestly what kid liked to go to school when they were wee, nobody. But im glad i did and glad i was forced

Just because apathy is rampant doesnt mean the parents dont know whats best

[MeanFish]

As some of you may know, I am in grad school....again. I guess I'm hoping that I can trade 3 masters for a doctorate. :shrug:

Anyway, I've been doing a lot of reading and analyzing this week and one thing I found interesting was the paradigm shift from "education is for acquiring knowledge" to "education is the way to get a job". I am a firm believer that our educational system the way it is now is not working. I also believe that it needs a major overhaul in order to be successful in today's society. So I pose this question to you:

What is the purpose of education? Why do we send our children to school? What do we expect from schooling?

I have more questions after that, but let's start we these first...unless this is boring as hell and you decide not to participate.

The purpose of education (as it should be): To teach the skills to make logical and objective decisions on how to best approach or achieve a given task or goal.

Children should be sent to school so that they can learn basic skills re: math, become literate, and make educated decisions with a given set of information available to them. We should expect schooling to provide skills in each of these three areas that are reasonable given a child's abilities.

The fundamental problem that I see with schools is that they focus on rote memorization such that children learn to a.) discover information, b.) store it, c.) acknowledge it later as fact. They never learn to ask questions about this information, or dig deeper into it. Additionally, because secondary schools are focused on catering to the weakest link, children who are otherwise interested in learning spend years towards the end learning almost nothing.

Schools spend far too much time trying to prove their own worth through standardized tests that measure nothing useful and they also spend far too much time trying to prepare kids for college.

My proposed solution to this is abbreviated schooling that really hammers down on the necessities (with heavy focuses in math, english and critical thinking). If I had my way, public schooling would be more along the lines of K-10. Specialized education should be saved for college or vocational school. If you're college-bound, just go to college instead of taking college prep courses (which often are more difficult than the actual first year of college). If you're going to be an auto mechanic, don't waste two years of your life waiting to start training to do that. Just do it. But at least walk out of school with the skills I mention here.

Anyway, there you go. :)

[Myrtle]

So what about the kids that don't want to learn just to acquire knowledge? Do they not have to go to school? I am trying to focus on K-12 and not college level.

Hmm, maybe I should have actually read more than your first post in this thread before posting a reply. ;)

My point was that acquiring knowledge and getting a job go hand in hand. You can gain knowledge without skills and not have the practical application to get a good job but you can't exactly gain skills and train for a job without also acquiring knowledge.

So, my point is, for the kids who don't really care about learning and just want a job, they're going to end up learning anyway. In fact, when I was in high school I honestly didn't care about being "self actualized" or understanding the way the world works, I just wanted a job. But the more I trained for the work world and the more time I spend in class, I realized that I actually enjoyed the learning process and wanted to continue that.

Kids who just want jobs still need to go to school. Telling students that they need to go to school and learn to get a job will motivate them to do the actual learning and hopefully teach them to understand the purposes of learning on a theoretical level.

My question for you is, why do you feel the current education system isn't working? I honestly don't know a whole lot about it, so I could be talking out of my ass... plus, I haven't spent even a fraction of the time that you have in the school system.

[MeanFish]

Just because apathy is rampant doesnt mean the parents dont know whats best

Here's a question -- why is apathy rampant?

[StockdaleforVeep]

Hmm, maybe I should have actually read more than your first post in this thread before posting a reply. ;)

My point was that acquiring knowledge and getting a job go hand in hand. You can gain knowledge without skills and not have the practical application to get a good job but you can't exactly gain skills and train for a job without also acquiring knowledge.

So, my point is, for the kids who don't really care about learning and just want a job, they're going to end up learning anyway. In fact, when I was in high school I honestly didn't care about being "self actualized" or understanding the way the world works, I just wanted a job. But the more I trained for the work world and the more time I spend in class, I realized that I actually enjoyed the learning process and wanted to continue that.

Kids who just want jobs still need to go to school. Telling students that they need to go to school and learn to get a job will motivate them to do the actual learning and hopefully teach them to understand the purposes of learning on a theoretical level.

My question for you is, why do you feel the current education system isn't working? I honestly don't know a whole lot about it, so I could be talking out of my ass... plus, I haven't spent even a fraction of the time that you have in the school system.

sadly this world is based on who you know, not what you know. A non graduate friend who is not even an american citizen got a asst mgr job over me, and i had a degree

He got deported later for felonies

[MeanFish]

sadly this world is based on who you know, not what you know. A non graduate friend who is not even an american citizen got a asst mgr job over me, and i had a degree

He got deported later for felonies

Neat, you answered my question, too. Two birds, one stone. Not bad. :cool:

[Palehose13]

The purpose of education (as it should be): To teach the skills to make logical and objective decisions on how to best approach or achieve a given task or goal.

Children should be sent to school so that they can learn basic skills re: math, become literate, and make educated decisions with a given set of information available to them. We should expect schooling to provide skills in each of these three areas that are reasonable given a child's abilities.

The fundamental problem that I see with schools is that they focus on rote memorization such that children learn to a.) discover information, b.) store it, c.) acknowledge it later as fact. They never learn to ask questions about this information, or dig deeper into it. Additionally, because secondary schools are focused on catering to the weakest link, children who are otherwise interested in learning spend years towards the end learning almost nothing.

Schools spend far too much time trying to prove their own worth through standardized tests that measure nothing useful and they also spend far too much time trying to prepare kids for college.

My proposed solution to this is abbreviated schooling that really hammers down on the necessities (with heavy focuses in math, english and critical thinking). If I had my way, public schooling would be more along the lines of K-10. Specialized education should be saved for college or vocational school. If you're college-bound, just go to college instead of taking college prep courses (which often are more difficult than the actual first year of college). If you're going to be an auto mechanic, don't waste two years of your life waiting to start training to do that. Just do it. But at least walk out of school with the skills I mention here.

Anyway, there you go. :)

Wow. More to think about. I like it.

Hmm, maybe I should have actually read more than your first post in this thread before posting a reply. ;)

My point was that acquiring knowledge and getting a job go hand in hand. You can gain knowledge without skills and not have the practical application to get a good job but you can't exactly gain skills and train for a job without also acquiring knowledge.

So, my point is, for the kids who don't really care about learning and just want a job, they're going to end up learning anyway. In fact, when I was in high school I honestly didn't care about being "self actualized" or understanding the way the world works, I just wanted a job. But the more I trained for the work world and the more time I spend in class, I realized that I actually enjoyed the learning process and wanted to continue that.

Kids who just want jobs still need to go to school. Telling students that they need to go to school and learn to get a job will motivate them to do the actual learning and hopefully teach them to understand the purposes of learning on a theoretical level.

My question for you is, why do you feel the current education system isn't working? I honestly don't know a whole lot about it, so I could be talking out of my ass... plus, I haven't spent even a fraction of the time that you have in the school system.

What I put in bold doesn't seem to work on a lot of kids. I see our current education system as a bunch of hoops kids have to jump through in order to get on with "real" life.

Stockdale mentioned that he didn't like to go to school, nobody does, and to basically suck it up. That wasn't always the case. About 100 years ago kids wanted to go to school. I mean, I don't think it'll ever be a place they would rather go to over an amusement park, but it should be more pleasant than going to the dentist.

FWIW...I liked school. :shrug:

[Myrtle]

sadly this world is based on who you know, not what you know. A non graduate friend who is not even an american citizen got a asst mgr job over me, and i had a degree

He got deported later for felonies

Well, maybe it's about the kind of person you are, also. ;)

But that wasn't my point. I meant if two students are in school at the same time and one of them is there just to be trained to get a job and one is there because she/he wants to be "enlightened" they will both be getting the same training and understanding of life, logic, etc, and they will both have similar opportunities when they graduate.

[Palehose13]

sadly this world is based on who you know, not what you know. A non graduate friend who is not even an american citizen got a asst mgr job over me, and i had a degree

He got deported later for felonies

And clearly this happens to everyone. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but i don't think one should sit around and expect promotions and recognition to just fall in your lap. You do have to work on them, you do have to meet people and get yourself noticed otherwise you are going to be passed up your whole life. A paper shouldn't be the only reason someone gets a job.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Here's a question -- why is apathy rampant?

Good question

Why do people call in bomb threats to my work simply because they dont want to work and then complain about "safety" when they are genuinely not worried and just dont want to work

They dont care

[Myrtle]

And clearly this happens to everyone. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but i don't one should sit around and expect promotions and recognition to just fall in your lap. You do have to work on them, you do have to meet people and get yourself noticed otherwise you are going to be passed up your whole life. A paper shouldn't be the only reason someone gets a job.

:thumbsup:

[Palehose13]

Good question

Why do people call in bomb threats to my work simply because they dont want to work and then complain about "safety" when they are genuinely not worried and just dont want to work

They dont care

Looks like you would be best served getting a different job.

It is apparent that our current educational system is serving you well and we need to just continue on with it.

[StockdaleforVeep]

And clearly this happens to everyone. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but i don't one should sit around and expect promotions and recognition to just fall in your lap. You do have to work on them, you do have to meet people and get yourself noticed otherwise you are going to be passed up your whole life. A paper shouldn't be the only reason someone gets a job.

I didnt say it happens to everyone

But it happens and its not right. I'll use zoso as my chief example cuz i know it. He got an ITS job at the firm thanks to his sister. He didnt graduate college and didnt even take courses in computers or OMIS, yet he got that job(to which i flipped cuz i know more about computers than him)

My friend nick who i am about to see, spent 4 years and graduated as an OMIS major and is working IT at allstate insurance. How is that fair to nick that he had to work for his degree to get his job and others dont?

Looks like you would be best served getting a different job.

It is apparent that our current educational system is serving you well and we need to just continue on with it.

My job is what it is. I prob could find better but my issue is i dont know what i want to do, but my degree has no limits really, i just dont know what id want for a career, but for now i am networking thru work, esp with local govt\local businesses and with regional aspects as well

[Myrtle]

I didnt say it happens to everyone

But it happens and its not right. I'll use zoso as my chief example cuz i know it. He got an ITS job at the firm thanks to his sister. He didnt graduate college and didnt even take courses in computers or OMIS, yet he got that job(to which i flipped cuz i know more about computers than him)

My friend nick who i am about to see, spent 4 years and graduated as an OMIS major and is working IT at allstate insurance. How is that fair to nick that he had to work for his degree to get his job and others dont?

So, did you or Nick apply for the job?

Did you persue it by calling the managers/supervisors and making yourself known to them?

Did you give them a resume with your credentials on it to show them how deserving of the job you actually were?

[MeanFish]

I didnt say it happens to everyone

But it happens and its not right. I'll use zoso as my chief example cuz i know it. He got an ITS job at the firm thanks to his sister. He didnt graduate college and didnt even take courses in computers or OMIS, yet he got that job(to which i flipped cuz i know more about computers than him)

My friend nick who i am about to see, spent 4 years and graduated as an OMIS major and is working IT at allstate insurance. How is that fair to nick that he had to work for his degree to get his job and others dont?



My job is what it is. I prob could find better but my issue is i dont know what i want to do, but my degree has no limits really, i just dont know what id want for a career, but for now i am networking thru work, esp with local govt\local businesses and with regional aspects as well

Is there anything that you take an unusual interest in when you're not at work? The degree shouldn't be about the job, which is part of the point that PH13 is making. People should have wider vision than simply graduating in whatev' and taking the best job that they can get because they have a degree.

[StockdaleforVeep]

So, did you or Nick apply for the job?

Did you persue it by calling the managers/supervisors and making yourself known to them?

Did you give them a resume with your credentials on it to show them how deserving of the job you actually were?

Im discussing the same job between two diff companies and how one was worked for to get it and one was dropped in his lap.

And yes, nick applied to allstate, right out of college and got it

Is there anything that you take an unusual interest in when you're not at work?

what do u mean

[MeanFish]

Im discussing the same job between two diff companies and how one was worked for to get it and one was dropped in his lap.

And yes, nick applied to allstate, right out of college and got it



what do u mean

You should be trying to work doing what you love -- that which moves you.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Is there anything that you take an unusual interest in when you're not at work? The degree shouldn't be about the job, which is part of the point that PH13 is making. People should have wider vision than simply graduating in whatev' and taking the best job that they can get because they have a degree.

I have many interests, the main thing ive been researching is employment in sports, either in the booth or writing. Lookin local first then tryin to expand

[Myrtle]

Im discussing the same job between two diff companies and how one was worked for to get it and one was dropped in his lap.

And yes, nick applied to allstate, right out of college and got it


So, you're pissed because Zoso got a job in the same field as you and Nick but didn't have a degree. A job that neither you nor Nick actually applied for. And clearly, both you and Nick have jobs that make use of the education that you both recieved.

I'm afraid I don't understand your frustration.

[SFS04]

Are you still upset at age 24 that the world isn't a fair place? Get over it.

[StockdaleforVeep]

So, you're pissed because Zoso got a job in the same field as you and Nick but didn't have a degree. A job that neither you nor Nick actually applied for. And clearly, both you and Nick have jobs that make use of the education that you both recieved.

I'm afraid I don't understand your frustration.

Sigh, and u wonder why i think women are small brained :jaykay:

Ok. Nick had a degree in OMIS, fancy way for saying IT support. He graduated with a degree in it in 4 years, paying his time, money, etc and got the job at allstate

ZoSo got the same job at a diff company, but had no official experience in the field, and without a degree but his sister got him in the door. Now why was that job not given to a credited graduate or someone in the field?

I am not an Omis major, i am a history major, so this discussion is not about me, i used those 2 as examples to show you can get what you want if you know people. I doubt if i walked into that firm and just whipped out a good powerpoint presentation as to why i should have the job, i would get hired because i dont have the credentials

Are you still upset at age 24 that the world isn't a fair place? Get over it.

Hey, u may wanna sit on your ass and let things get worse\remain stagnant, i like to think things can improve. Continue to contribute to the downgrade to society
and you can report this post as insulting if you want
:whocares:
:gene:

[SFS04]

Because a college degree isn't everything--you HAVE to network to get by. The world isn't fair, that's just how it is. Rather than complain about it go meet people who work in what you want to do and try and get your foot in the door.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Because a college degree isn't everything--you HAVE to network to get by. The world isn't fair, that's just how it is. Rather than complain about it go meet people who work in what you want to do and try and get your foot in the door.

Isnt that the underlying concept of this thread then? Sure val is mainly discussing grammar\elementary but if a degree isnt everything, then why go to college? Simply get any job at age 16 and start networking there and BOOM, you can be successful!

If all you need to do is network, then bypass the 5 digit college debt some people get and just work eh?

I like working for my goals, not having them just given to me, call it work ethic? :shrug: Or call it the republican concept of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps

Why are you in grad school? Since its all about networking, so just meet people and you can avoid any college debt problems you may have and you can save time that could be spent networking

[SFS04]

Going to school introduces you to people. It teaches you more than just what is taught in class--how to socialize with people, how to make connections, how to network. Networking is a huge part of my current degree program, and IMO a portion of what you pay for a school is because of who you meet there. You go to a big name school for more bucks and you're going to meet some people that have tons of major connections and could be a huge asset in getting a good job.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Going to school introduces you to people. It teaches you more than just what is taught in class--how to socialize with people, how to make connections, how to network. Networking is a huge part of my current degree program, and IMO a portion of what you pay for a school is because of who you meet there. You go to a big name school for more bucks and you're going to meet some people that have tons of major connections and could be a huge asset in getting a good job.
So how is that fair to people who do that, spend the time and money to network while some get similar if not better jobs due to daddy or friends who can get them in the job?

Also, shouldnt u be ignoring me?

Also LBJ went to a small no name texas college, and became the worlds most powerful man, he also made it a point to address this in EVERY cabinet meeting

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I think Karin really nailed it when she talked about her unique experience in 8th grade. I think our whole approach to education is too cookie-cutter and people are not getting hooked-in. Here we have some folks who took a completely different approach, which included rewarding kids for progressing and getting them interested in what was being taught- and it turned a totally introverted girl into a confident and eager student. THAT is where the rubber meets the road. Let's find creative ways to get our children interested and eager to participate instead of basically being lectured at for 180 days a year.

[StockdaleforVeep]

I think Karin really nailed it when she talked about her unique experience in 8th grade. I think our whole approach to education is too cookie-cutter and people are not getting hooked-in. Here we have some folks who took a completely different approach, which included rewarding kids for progressing and getting them interested in what was being taught- and it turned a totally introverted girl into a confident and eager student. THAT is where the rubber meets the road. Let's find creative ways to get our children interested and eager to participate instead of basically being lectured at for 180 days a year.

Explosive neck collars

Dont pay attention or want to learn, you die

[SFS04]

I'm not really sure why I'm discussing this with you because you really just don't comprehend things that people tell you, :shrug:.

Ask your buddy Loftus about that :hello: and that's my point, the world is NOT a fair place and it never will be so rather than whine about it why not use your degree AND your other skills to get you where you want to go.

Just because I use that example about a major school doesn't mean it's the case in every situation, quit being so black and white.

[Myrtle]

ZoSo got the same job at a diff company, but had no official experience in the field, and without a degree but his sister got him in the door. Now why was that job not given to a credited graduate or someone in the field?

Maybe because Zoso was actually better at the job than any person with a degree. And he was lucky enough to have his sister there to give them that information. Of course you need to know people. You can't just put an application in at a job site and expect them to hire you off of that peice of paper. They have to know who you are first.

You do know that to get a good job you should probably work on being a decent person as well as having education, right?

[SFS04]

Plus, just because you have the skills for a job doesn't mean you're going to be good at it. People want a coworker they can get along with and trust.

[samram]

Isnt that the underlying concept of this thread then? Sure val is mainly discussing grammar\elementary but if a degree isnt everything, then why go to college? Simply get any job at age 16 and start networking there and BOOM, you can be successful!

If all you need to do is network, then bypass the 5 digit college debt some people get and just work eh?

I like working for my goals, not having them just given to me, call it work ethic? :shrug: Or call it the republican concept of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps

Why are you in grad school? Since its all about networking, so just meet people and you can avoid any college debt problems you may have and you can save time that could be spent networking

Yes, some people do that. Some people go to school and excel and get good jobs. Other people whine about the people in the first two sentences.

Employers don't always care about educational pedigree (unless you're talking about doctors, lawyers, etc. where they have to have a specific degree); they care about having people who can do the job or learn quickly. When I interview people, GPA means way less than how people present themselves and/or any prior experience.

[Myrtle]

So how is that fair to people who do that, spend the time and money to network while some get similar if not better jobs due to daddy or friends who can get them in the job?

Gyyyaahhhhhfkdspfft!

How was it unfair to your friend Nick that Zoso got the same job he did? It's not like Nick DIDN'T get the job because of Zoso.

Karin is right. It's about networking. Zoso's sister just happened to be in his network. And thank god that employers need more than a degree to hire someone, otherwise many many people like you would be in positions of power.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Maybe because Zoso was actually better at the job than any person with a degree. And he was lucky enough to have his sister there to give them that information. Of course you need to know people. You can't just put an application in at a job site and expect them to hire you off of that peice of paper. They have to know who you are first.

You do know that to get a good job you should probably work on being a decent person as well as having education, right?

I am sort of a poster child for what you can do bypassing college. There are people out there that were awful students or who got sidetracked in HS/college that are making a great living out here because they can network and they have the basic skills.

[SFS04]

This all goes back to Val's thoughts--you need to learn how to meet people, how to be trustworthy, punctual, responsible, these are all things that SHOULD be emphasized in the school systems. I'm not saying they aren't but I think it's really important, and I think alternative ed really does a great job of it, when done right, by instructors who truly care about the welfare and success of their students.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Maybe because Zoso was actually better at the job than any person with a degree. And he was lucky enough to have his sister there to give them that information. Of course you need to know people. You can't just put an application in at a job site and expect them to hire you off of that peice of paper. They have to know who you are first.

You do know that to get a good job you should probably work on being a decent person as well as having education, right?

You implying im not a decent person?

[1951Campbell]

Stockdale, you have a real union mentality about this degree/job thing. It's not you do the graft (get the degree), you automatically get the perk (the job).

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I will say this: as I continue my job search, there are a LOT of companies that are looking for people with my exact skillsets (Google, Cisco, Safeway) that will not even TALK to me because I have no college on my resume, despite 20+ years of experience. That kinda sucks...

[samram]

This all goes back to Val's thoughts--you need to learn how to meet people, how to be trustworthy, punctual, responsible, these are all things that SHOULD be emphasized in the school systems. I'm not saying they aren't but I think it's really important, and I think alternative ed really does a great job of it, when done right, by instructors who truly care about the welfare and success of their students.

Yeah, soft skills are pretty important. Unfortunately, since a lot of schools don't emphasize them, employers end up doing what are almost always ungodly boring training sessions which emphasize them.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Yes, some people do that. Some people go to school and excel and get good jobs. Other people whine about the people in the first two sentences.

Employers don't always care about educational pedigree (unless you're talking about doctors, lawyers, etc. where they have to have a specific degree); they care about having people who can do the job or learn quickly. When I interview people, GPA means way less than how people present themselves and/or any prior experience.
You may want to add accountants and such to that list as well

Just being thorough since i go to a mostly business school and most my friends are business\accounting majors.

also i never discussed GPA

Yeah, soft skills are pretty important. Unfortunately, since a lot of schools don't emphasize them, employers end up doing what are almost always ungodly boring training sessions which emphasize them.

Depends on the major, some colleges actually have golf as part of the business program because its how a lot of meetings are done

[samram]

I will say this: as I continue my job search, there are a LOT of companies that are looking for people with my exact skillsets (Google, Cisco, Safeway) that will not even TALK to me because I have no college on my resume, despite 20+ years of experience. That kinda sucks...

I would say it's probably harder to catch on with the really big companies because there are so many applicants. That's not to say in anyway that you're not as qualified or deserving, but those companies go through hundreds of resumes a day. However, that's where networking really helps- if you just get your foot in the door, you never know what can happen.

[StockdaleforVeep]

I would say it's probably harder to catch on with the really big companies because there are so many applicants. That's not to say in anyway that you're not as qualified or deserving, but those companies go through hundreds of resumes a day. However, that's where networking really helps- if you just get your foot in the door, you never know what can happen.

THAT is different and i understand. I know the large number of people and have been to job faires where you give a resume and have to charm your way to be remembered and then follow up with the interviewer to keep your name fresh\etc etc

Im not disputing that, i was disputing the unfairness of college vs no college can get the same job

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I would say it's probably harder to catch on with the really big companies because there are so many applicants. That's not to say in anyway that you're not as qualified or deserving, but those companies go through hundreds of resumes a day. However, that's where networking really helps- if you just get your foot in the door, you never know what can happen.

Well, I know for a fact that Google and Cisco will not even interview somebody without a degree. Safeway I am not so sure, but I have applied for a handful of jobs there at the corporate office and never even get an acknowlegement.

[SFS04]

Well, what if you have a college degree in something but just aren't good at it? Or if you don't but you've been taught in other ways and are one of the best out there?

My job's COMPLETELY unassociated w/what my Bachelor's was in, but I wanted to change fields, and how did I do it? I used my connections and personal skills to contact someone I knew through networking and was in a position to hire, convinced them to create a position (that i designed, feeling it would fit well with the company's position and goals) and they were impressed and hired me. I suppose I should have never got the job. :rolleyes:

[maurice]

I will say this: as I continue my job search, there are a LOT of companies that are looking for people with my exact skillsets (Google, Cisco, Safeway) that will not even TALK to me because I have no college on my resume, despite 20+ years of experience. That kinda sucks...

That's ridiculous.

Back in the day, when demand for computer jobs was high, I had no problem finding work with no college degree and no computer classes. What mattered is that I had experience in the field and actually knew how to do relevant stuff. It was precisely the sort of job where a college degree was not relevant.

Meanwhile, my sister-in-law has a computer science degree from a large state school. Yet, she'd be unable to do any computer job, because they used mainframes with punchcards when she was in school, and she hasn't remained current with the technology.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Ridiculous? Hardly. I have spoken to people that work at Cisco and Google and that is their hiring policy. Add Oracle to that list too.

[Dan Mega]

Ridiculous? Hardly. I have spoken to people that work at Cisco and Google and that is their hiring policy. Add Oracle to that list too.

That is a very stupid policy.

When I'm reviewing resumes, having a degree is probably one of the last things I take into consideration when analyst or project management positions open up. I'm more interested in seeing their experience and certifications.

My degree was a major in Secondary Education and a Minor in Music theory. Guess how much of that I'm applying to my career in consulting? None. Could I have gotten to my current position without an undergrad degree? Yes.

[Myrtle]

Well, that goes along with the same old shit about how having an undergrad degree doesn't mean much anymore.

Undergrad is the new high school and grad school is the new undergrad.

In my undergrad, I never got any practical experience with counseling and working with clients. I did in my job at the shelter, but that was not associated with school. After just two weeks of grad school, I feel like I've got a pretty good handle on how to handle my sessions in my internship. We've already done so much practical work and I just started.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

That is a very stupid policy.

When I'm reviewing resumes, having a degree is probably one of the last things I take into consideration when analyst or project management positions open up. I'm more interested in seeing their experience and certifications.


Same here, Mega Man. I will take experience over education most of the time (depending on what I am hiring for). Granted my bias is at work a little there, but I am not hiring controllers and FP&A people...

[Palehose13]

Isnt that the underlying concept of this thread then? Sure val is mainly discussing grammar\elementary but if a degree isnt everything, then why go to college? Simply get any job at age 16 and start networking there and BOOM, you can be successful!


No. I am asking people for input/ideas on how to reform elementary and secondary education. College is a whole different monster. Those people don't even have to know how to teach, it's more "Sage on the stage".

I think Karin really nailed it when she talked about her unique experience in 8th grade. I think our whole approach to education is too cookie-cutter and people are not getting hooked-in. Here we have some folks who took a completely different approach, which included rewarding kids for progressing and getting them interested in what was being taught- and it turned a totally introverted girl into a confident and eager student. THAT is where the rubber meets the road. Let's find creative ways to get our children interested and eager to participate instead of basically being lectured at for 180 days a year.

THIS is what I am looking for and wondering how it can be accomplished.

When I have time I think I am going to take a really close look at educational systems in Europe and Japan.



Stockdale, for the record, my brother brother (now 30) got a job at a major communications company just after his freshman year at Columbia College. He knew no one, but sure did know his shit. He's still there and has been promoted without a degree and probably makes more than me. :shrug:

[SFS04]

Val if you want any more info on my alternative ed situation feel free to PM me.

[1951Campbell]

Well, that goes along with the same old shit about how having an undergrad degree doesn't mean much anymore.

Undergrad is the new high school and grad school is the new undergrad.


QFT.

[fquaye14ten]

my BA is pretty dope

[SFS04]

My BM is essentially that.

[maurice]

Ridiculous? Hardly.

Ridiculous? Absolutely. The policy is ridiculous.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Ridiculous? Absolutely. The policy is ridiculous.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. :o

No. I am asking people for input/ideas on how to reform elementary and secondary education. College is a whole different monster. Those people don't even have to know how to teach, it's more "Sage on the stage".



THIS is what I am looking for and wondering how it can be accomplished.

When I have time I think I am going to take a really close look at educational systems in Europe and Japan.




I think you will be amazed at what you find. I understand Belgium has a wonderful system where they basically put a price tag on each child. Then, the schools are essentially in competition for a given child. The parents and child choose the school that best suits the needs of the child. Kind of a free market approach, if you will. The bad schools don't survive in a system like that. The schools also tend to be much leaner administratively because they have to spend more money on good teachers and good curriculum.

There was a thread here about this once, but I am too lazy to look for it.
But here is a fascinating look at American vs European schools if you missed it the first time around: Linky (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338)

[ewokpelts]

I joined late, and I'll respond to the other stuff as I go through this, but in MY opinion:

Get the damm kids to know how to read and write at non-retard levels.
6th grade reading level should NOT be the national average.

If you can comprehend the written word, as well as produce sentences, we'll all be better off.


Quality of Education should NOT be determined by where you live.
And just cuz you live in a fancy rich suburb DOSENT mean your kids are going to thrive in that fancy starship enterprise highschool paid for by your high proerty taxes.
Ask the kids in Columbine.



My solution? Fuck standarized tests. And make sure they can read and write. adding would help too.I'm suprised no one touched on these simple statements.

[fquaye14ten]

simple wasn't the word you were looking for :rolleyes:

[Iwritecode]

Meanwhile, my sister-in-law has a computer science degree from a large state school. Yet, she'd be unable to do any computer job, because they used mainframes with punchcards when she was in school, and she hasn't remained current with the technology.

The technology I know is one step above punchcards. :o

FWIW, I got my current job before I even got my 2-year degree and I didn't know anybody...

[Prope]

What is the purpose of education? Why do we send our children to school? What do we expect from schooling?
The purpose of education is to prepare American children for work. You send your child to school because most parents are not able to teach students specifics that trained professionals can. You should expect informed citizens.

If one focuses on that shit, you can't be stopped. I realize the world needs ditch-diggers too, but if K-12 education tried to push all the St. John's stuff I've been indoctrinated into, there would be a lot less people resorting to being ditch-diggers. Jobs are ephemeral...acquiring knowledge will always keep the mortgage paid, whether you're writing code, appraising, building stuff, painting, participating in the information economy, or what have you.
Word.

Now, a question for YOU teacher. :D

What do you expect from your students, and your parents respectively?
From students: Respect, responsibility and accountability
From parents: Respect, responsibility and accountability

An underrated aspect of school is socialization. It's a great opportunity for kids to learn to socialize with other kids their own age who are from a variety of different backgrounds . . . well, at least it's that way in some communities.
And you don't realize how underrated it is until you hit college. I came from a high school that had a mix of white, black, and hispanic. I found myself making more friends in college than those who came from an all-white or all-black or all-hispanic high school.

Stockdale mentioned that he didn't like to go to school, nobody does, and to basically suck it up. That wasn't always the case. About 100 years ago kids wanted to go to school. I mean, I don't think it'll ever be a place they would rather go to over an amusement park,
You know who wants to go to school now? Children in India and China.

[Palehose13]

You know who wants to go to school now? Children in India and China.

:notworthy:

[Prope]

:notworthy:
Ironically, those are the same children taking math and science jobs away from American children.

[Palehose13]

Ironically, those are the same children taking math and science jobs away from American children.

I suppose what we have to figure out that once education is there for everyone, how do we keep people interested in education? Obviously a lot of people here are interested in education, but not so much in the general public, especially urban areas. I find it ironic how only about 40 years ago the civil rights movement was demanding equal education, but now the african-american male has the highest drop out rate (at least in Milwaukee).

Clearly the idea of receiving a free education has "played out" in this country and is not a motivator. I have started looking into other education systems around the world and American children spend about 6.5 hours/day in school, while it looks like a number of European countries have their students in school 4-5 hours a day. The significance I have noticed was the increase of non-instructional time for teachers is valued more so that meaningful lesson plans can be planned and collaboration with others is encouraged.

Eh...sorry for the babbling.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Ironically, those are the same children taking math and science jobs away from American children.

This morning on talk radio, Lee Rogers was saying "How long will it take before people realize that we are going to have to blow a few holes in Pakistan to make any real headway against al Qaeda?" And the traffic guy Officer Vic says "We should outsource that job to India!" I about spit my coffee on my dashboard!!! :rolling:

[Prope]

I suppose what we have to figure out that once education is there for everyone, how do we keep people interested in education?
Currently, I'm reading The World is Flat, by Thomas Friedman. He tells a story about a friend of his daughters who is working on his PhD at Yale in molecular biology. He is the only American in his program, when asked about that he says, "Yale produces presidents, not scientists."

It really is a fascinating read, one that I would suggest to anybody who has the time. He talks about how political leaders in China and India are former engineers, in America they are lawyers.

[Palehose13]

Currently, I'm reading The World is Flat, by Thomas Friedman. He tells a story about a friend of his daughters who is working on his PhD at Yale in molecular biology. He is the only American in his program, when asked about that he says, "Yale produces presidents, not scientists."

It really is a fascinating read, one that I would suggest to anybody who has the time. He talks about how political leaders in China and India are former engineers, in America they are lawyers.

Interesting. I may have to check that out when I am at the bookstore.

[maurice]

Ironically, those are the same children taking math and science jobs away from American children.

I don't know if you can say that they're "taking" them.

More like Americans are giving them away by failing to train in these fields.

U.S. businesses would be screwed without all of these ferners tak'n er jerbs.

[Prope]

Interesting. I may have to check that out when I am at the bookstore.
There is much more than I give in my bad review of the book
I don't know if you can say that they're "taking" them.
Yeah, you are right - that is the better way of saying it.

[ewokpelts]

simple wasn't the word you were looking for :rolleyes:
what the fuck does your jackass comment have to do with thsi thread?

Val,
I said it before, and I standby it.

Teach them to read, write, and add. If you can do all three at a 11th-12th grade level by HS Graduation, this country will be doing a LOT better.
Kids gotta have BASIC SKILLS to survive in this world.
The rest will follow.

As i said before, standarized tests are the devil in the schools. The only thing I can remember from Standarized Test time is that a baloo is a bear. The rest went down the drain. It didnt make me any smarter or help me succeed in life.
Knowing how to read, being able to write a (semi) coherrent sentence, and knowing basis math(and algebra) skills has done more for me than any test.
Gene

[Prope]

And clearly this happens to everyone. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but i don't think one should sit around and expect promotions and recognition to just fall in your lap. You do have to work on them, you do have to meet people and get yourself noticed otherwise you are going to be passed up your whole life. A paper shouldn't be the only reason someone gets a job.
:thumbsup: Val.

Seriously Stocky, what sense of entitlement do you have that thinks you should automatically get the job over a non-American?

Because a college degree isn't everything--you HAVE to network to get by. The world isn't fair, that's just how it is. Rather than complain about it go meet people who work in what you want to do and try and get your foot in the door.
Bingo.

With increasing rates of IT and other tech jobs moving to India and China it should be a responsibility of American students to focus social skills and networking. I do think this is something that can be done with the liberal arts degree that Campbell was talking about earlier in the thread.

This all goes back to Val's thoughts--you need to learn how to meet people, how to be trustworthy, punctual, responsible, these are all things that SHOULD be emphasized in the school systems. I'm not saying they aren't but I think it's really important, and I think alternative ed really does a great job of it, when done right, by instructors who truly care about the welfare and success of their students.
Another point awarded to Karin.

Teach them to read, write, and add. If you can do all three at a 11th-12th grade level by HS Graduation, this country will be doing a LOT better.
Kids gotta have BASIC SKILLS to survive in this world.
The rest will follow.
Yep, it is just that easy.

Right Val? Right Heather? Right???

:rolleyes: