The House's FISA Cave-In

[1951Campbell]

Gee, why didn't Team Blue here at SATC bring this up sooner?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/06/washington/06nsa.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

:ridiculous:

[CaptainBallz]

The Senate caved as well... what a shameless group of tools.. On the bright side, Durbin and Obama did the right thing.

Another question: Is there a republican with a conscience?

Grouped By Vote Position YEAs ---60
Allard (R-CO)
Barrasso (R-WY)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Burr (R-NC)
Carper (D-DE)
Casey (D-PA)-- I blame Campbell
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corker (R-TN)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (ID-CT)-- a horrid death awaits this man
Lincoln (D-AR)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCaskill (D-MO)
McConnell (R-KY)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Roberts (R-KS)
Salazar (D-CO)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)
Webb (D-VA)-- Surprised by this one

NAYs ---28
Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Tester (D-MT)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)

Not Voting - 12
Alexander (R-TN)
Boxer (D-CA)
Bunning (R-KY)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Gregg (R-NH)
Harkin (D-IA)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
McCain (R-AZ)
Murray (D-WA)

[1951Campbell]

The Senate caved as well... what a shameless group of tools.. On the bright side, Durbin and Obama did the right thing.

Another question: Is there a republican with a conscience?


Casey (D-PA)-- I blame Campbell


:D

All the Republicans with conscience have left the party due to embarrassment or are voting for Paul. That doesn't leave a lot to work with.

[CaptainBallz]

:D

All the Republicans with conscience have left the party due to embarrassment or are voting for Paul. That doesn't leave a lot to work with.

there was a nice editorial on Paul yesterday in the Tribune talking about his huge popularity in cyberspace not translating into any mainstream coverage. It didn't give any hope to his campaign, but at least there was the acknowledgement.

Now if Dancin' Denny can get the same treatment.

[1951Campbell]

there was a nice editorial on Paul yesterday in the Tribune talking about his huge popularity in cyberspace not translating into any mainstream coverage. It didn't give any hope to his campaign, but at least there was the acknowledgement.

Now if Dancin' Denny can get the same treatment.

Someone likened Paul's popularity on the web to how popular Snakes on a Plane was before it came out, the implication being that cyberspace popularity is not an accurate gauge of popularity in or impact on meatspace. I thought, sadly, that was pretty apt. But we'll see how things go. :shrug:

As for the commie elf, he still has plenty of time to have his "Rudy vs. Paul" moment, which is what suddenly spiked interest in Paul. Hillary, Obama and Edwards have plenty of scabs he could pick at to double his poll numbers to about 2%.

[CaptainBallz]

As for the commie elf, he still has plenty of time to have his "Rudy vs. Paul" moment, which is what suddenly spiked interest in Paul. Hillary, Obama and Edwards have plenty of scabs he could pick at to double his poll numbers to about 2%.

And what a great day for freedom that would be!

I just don't get it. When you go back and recap these democratic debates, Kicinich is the only person that makes complete sense every time they let him speak and doesn't say anything that's evern remotely attackable by the other corporate tools on the stage, yet it seems to go right over people's heads. Much like Paul, except he's able to stand out with his staunch anti-war position.

[samram]

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. They promise.

[CaptainBallz]

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. They promise.

I hear people repeating crap like that all the time. What ass-backwards rhetoric that is.

[samram]

I hear people repeating crap like that all the time. What ass-backwards rhetoric that is.

You're probably a terrorist, that's why you're upset. 'Cause this is only used for terrorists, not for small time drug dealers or anything like that.

[CaptainBallz]

or activists or political rivals....

[Prope]

Names on here that are a surprise.

Grouped By Vote Position YEAs ---60
Bayh (D-IN)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Grassley (R-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
McCaskill (D-MO)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Roberts (R-KS)
Salazar (D-CO)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Webb (D-VA)

Not Voting - 12
Boxer (D-CA)
Bunning (R-KY)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kerry (D-MA)
McCain (R-AZ)
Murray (D-WA)

Gee, why didn't Team Blue here at SATC bring this up sooner?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/06/washington/06nsa.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

:ridiculous:
I'm sorry, but aren't you with Team Blue on this one?

[CaptainBallz]

Jim Webb's written confirmation that he can, in fact, talk out of both sides of his ass:

Yesterday I supported two measures to amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. These measures were considered against the backdrop of heightened concerns from our nation's intelligence community abut the threat of international terrorism. The ramifications of the two amendments before us last night were not political. Instead they related to the urgent demands of national security. I chose to heed those warnings. We now have six months to work in earnest to bring full accountability to the process.

This distinction and the threats to national security were stated clearly by Admiral McConnell as well as four of the eight Democratic members of the Senate Intelligence Committee. These members, Senators Feinstein, Mikulski, Bayh, and Bill Nelson, have extensive experience on intelligence matters and are respected champions of civil rights and liberties. They chose to give significant weight and deference to the intelligence community on FISA reform, and so did I.

There is near uniform, bipartisan agreement on the need to reform FISA to reflect modern telecommunications and information technology. We must do so in a way that safeguards basic civil and constitutional rights. But we must also remember that the terrorist threat to the nation is extremely serious. I remain fully committed to bringing accountability to this process, and to protecting the privacy rights of all Americans.

[samram]

Jim Webb's written confirmation that he can, in fact, talk out of both sides of his ass:

Yesterday I supported two measures to amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. These measures were considered against the backdrop of heightened concerns from our nation's intelligence community abut the threat of international terrorism. The ramifications of the two amendments before us last night were not political. Instead they related to the urgent demands of national security. I chose to heed those warnings. We now have six months to work in earnest to bring full accountability to the process.

This distinction and the threats to national security were stated clearly by Admiral McConnell as well as four of the eight Democratic members of the Senate Intelligence Committee. These members, Senators Feinstein, Mikulski, Bayh, and Bill Nelson, have extensive experience on intelligence matters and are respected champions of civil rights and liberties. They chose to give significant weight and deference to the intelligence community on FISA reform, and so did I.

There is near uniform, bipartisan agreement on the need to reform FISA to reflect modern telecommunications and information technology. We must do so in a way that safeguards basic civil and constitutional rights. But we must also remember that the terrorist threat to the nation is extremely serious. I remain fully committed to bringing accountability to this process, and to protecting the privacy rights of all Americans.

On the first bold part, replace "intelligence community" with "executive branch."

On the second bolded part, seeing as the AG has four months to come up with the processes that must be followed, leaving two months for debate, my guess is whatever DOJ comes up with it will be rubber stamped come February or whenever.

[CaptainBallz]

Also considering who's at the helm of the DOJ, I don't really expect any reasonable procedures to be drawn up.

Also, Mr. Webb, how does suspending constitutional rights for 6 months = "protecting the privacy rights of all Americans"??

[1951Campbell]

I'm sorry, but aren't you with Team Blue on this one?

Which Team Blue? The Fall 2006 Team Blue who kept saying, if elected, they would "stop teh BushXXor!!!!!!11111" or the Summer 2007 Team Blue who act like do-nothing appeasers? I'm on the team that will stop this nonsense. That ain't red or blue.

Also, I suspect the Democrats have finally realized "hey, these sweeping powers sure would be nice to have when a Democrat wins the presidency in 2008."

[CaptainBallz]

Which Team Blue? The Fall 2006 Team Blue who kept saying, if elected, they would "stop teh BushXXor!!!!!!11111" or the Summer 2007 Team Blue who act like do-nothing appeasers? I'm on the team that will stop this nonsense. That ain't red or blue.

GREEN!!!!? :nana:

Good thinking, campbell!

Also, I suspect the Democrats have finally realized "hey, these sweeping powers sure would be nice to have when a Democrat wins the presidency in 2008."

so true.. It must be understood that a vast majority of Dems are just as "party above policy" as the Repubs...

viva a la revolution

[maurice]

I didn't bring this up, because I was too POed to form a coherent sentence.

Let's see, you run for office on a platform of changing the status quo, getting us out of Iraq, and restoring civil liberties. Having passed nothing to accomplish the first two, you proceed to pass something that it the OPPOSITE of the third one.

It's daft to look at this administration and think, "You know what these guys really ought to have? More power."

[1951Campbell]

GREEN!!!!? :nana:

Good thinking, campbell!



so true.. It must be understood that a vast majority of Dems are just as "party above policy" as the Repubs...

viva a la revolution

Ha, not Green. The libertarian color is "whatever color you choose, man." :D

Yes, party above policy, always. I keep thinking how this is such a dramatic role-reversal of all the post-OKC Bombing legislation that Bill Clinton proposed and the Reublican Congress gnashed teeth about. In fact, most of the post-9/11 stuff just seemed to be warmed-over OKC stuff with an acknowledgment of the existence of the internet thrown in. The only thing that's changed are the parties championing the legislation.

[CaptainBallz]

Ha, not Green. The libertarian color is "whatever color you choose, man." :D



Ironically, that color would most likely be green as well --- but for completely different reasons...

[1951Campbell]

Ironically, that color would most likely be green as well --- but for completely different reasons...

Hmm, a guilt-free appreciation for both pot and free markets?

[Prope]

Also, I suspect the Democrats have finally realized "hey, these sweeping powers sure would be nice to have when a Democrat wins the presidency in 2008."

so true.. It must be understood that a vast majority of Dems are just as "party above policy" as the Repubs...

Let's see, you run for office on a platform of changing the status quo, getting us out of Iraq, and restoring civil liberties. Having passed nothing to accomplish the first two, you proceed to pass something that it the OPPOSITE of the third one.

Yes, party above policy, always.
I've always wondered how what a senator from Maine does would influence what a voter in Oregon would do, and vote for the different party.

Anyways, I'll echo the sentiments that Campbell laid out in the first post I quote, and what Captain and Maurice also followed.

It sucks....

[CaptainBallz]

Hmm, a guilt-free appreciation for both pot and free markets?

an excess of one does seem to lead one to believe in the excesses of the other...

[maurice]

The FBI, DOD, big-government-types, etc. all have their wish-lists. Whenever wackiness ensues, they use it as an excuse to get their wishes fulfilled. Nobody (except us terrorist-loving flag burners) ever stops to ask whether the wish-list actually addresses the problem at hand. Almost 6 years after 9/11, it's still nigh impossible to get them rolled back with virtually no small-government types in power.
:(