Mets Vs Phils

[Efilnikufesin]

Let discuss how better off the Phils are to the Mets.

[fquaye14ten]

that would be a short thread.

Howard and Utley are great talents.

The end.

[the fluffer]

Efilnikufesin knows all, his/her word is law - so don't question him/her in this thread or any other.

[fquaye14ten]

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/03/wow.html

efil=john kruk?

[Efilnikufesin]

Efilnikufesin knows all, his/her word is law - so don't question him/her in this thread or any other.

Again prove me wrong.. just don't bitch that you can't.

[fquaye14ten]

we have. The Phillies have a mediocre rotation, a below average bullpen, and a slightly above average lineup.

The Mets have a mediocre rotation, an average to above average bullpen, and an above average lineup.

We can pull out every single stat imaginable, but I guess we didn't think it was too much for you to do that on your own, instead of trumpeting a fucking Phillies rotation that is the epitome of mediocre

[Efilnikufesin]

we have. The Phillies have a mediocre rotation, a below average bullpen, and a slightly above average lineup.

The Mets have a mediocre rotation, an average to above average bullpen, and an above average lineup.

We can pull out every single stat imaginable, but I guess we didn't think it was too much for you to do that on your own, instead of trumpeting a fucking Phillies rotation that is the epitome of mediocre


Still waiting

Mets, Shitty SP past Glavine, Decent Pen, And Great Offense
Phils, Decent SP all around, Decent Pen.. and Great offense.

Where am I missing how the Mets are better?

[fquaye14ten]

that's so reductive it's not funny. It's like you're saying mets pen=phils pen and mets o=phils o

here's the breakdown. patience for you pwning please, I must collect the #'s

[Hangar18]

I dont know what it is about the NY Mets, they come off as PHONY to me

[fquaye14ten]

1. Jimmy Rollins SS
2. Shane Victorino RF
3. Chase Utley 2B
4. Ryan Howard 1B
5. Pat Burrell LF
6. Aaron Rowand CF
7. Wes Helms 3B
8. Rod Barajas C

1. Jose Reyes SS
2. Paul Lo Duca C
3. Carlos Beltran CF
4. Carlos Delgado 1B
5. David Wright 3B
6. Moises Alou LF
7. Shawn Green RF
8. Jose Valentin 2B

Position by position, it's not really even close. Mets have much better players at Catcher (OPS+ diff=27), and CF (66)

They have better players at SS(15), at LF(8), and at RF(2)

The Phillies are better at 1B(40), 2B(15), and believe it or not 3B(13) although I doubt even YOU would say you would take Wes Helms over David Wright

Clearly the Mets have a better offense. Period.

More to come

[fquaye14ten]

I dont know what it is about the NY Mets, they come off as PHONY to me

yeah that was really phony last year when they almost made it to the world series:rolleyes:

you know exactly what it is about the Mets---they spend more $$$ than the sox

[Efilnikufesin]

I dont know what it is about the NY Mets, they come off as PHONY to me

I know what you mean.. Alot of their players had Career years in their Rotation and Pen.. to think they will do that again is laughable. The Cards with less pitching then them beat them to go to the WS... But somehow they are this grand team in the NLE.

The Mets got lucky and caught alot of breaks in 06.. Atl having a down year, FLA rebuilding, Philly rotation in dumps, and well there is the Nats..Who might take the place of KC/Cubs and be the worst team in baseball.

[Efilnikufesin]

1. Jimmy Rollins SS
2. Shane Victorino RF
3. Chase Utley 2B
4. Ryan Howard 1B
5. Pat Burrell LF
6. Aaron Rowand CF
7. Wes Helms 3B
8. Rod Barajas C

1. Jose Reyes SS
2. Paul Lo Duca C
3. Carlos Beltran CF
4. Carlos Delgado 1B
5. David Wright 3B
6. Moises Alou LF
7. Shawn Green RF
8. Jose Valentin 2B

Position by position, it's not really even close. Mets have much better players at Catcher (OPS+ diff=27), and CF (66)

They have better players at SS(15), at LF(8), and at RF(2)

The Phillies are better at 1B(40), 2B(15), and believe it or not 3B(13) although I doubt even YOU would say you would take Wes Helms over David Wright

Clearly the Mets have a better offense. Period.

More to come

Like I said in the other thread.. The Mets only have upgrades in 3b and CF and C. Rf Is a toss up, but the Phils have better players at 1b, 2b, SS, and LF. In every math Class I have ever taken 4 players is better than 3 players..

Keep the laughs up though.. you are doing great.

[maurice]

Position by position, it's not really even close.

And you're being generous. The Phils obviously have a huge edge with Utley and a smaller edge with Howard. (Howard is great but, unlike Valentin, Delgado is no scrub.) The Mets win every other position.

[Hangar18]

yeah that was really phony last year when they almost made it to the world series:rolleyes:

you know exactly what it is about the Mets---they spend more $$$ than the sox

Yeah, they ALMOST made it to the series, but lost to a team that won 83 games .......... hhhahahahaahahahahahahaha
Im going take Phony for $500

[Efilnikufesin]

And you're being generous. The Phils obviously have a huge edge with Utley and a smaller edge with Howard. (Howard is great but, unlike Valentin, Delgado is no scrub.) The Mets win every other position.

Explain to me how Alou is better than Burell? How Reyes is better than Rollins who now thinking about it are about the same.. no real advantage.

[Unregistered]

Yeah, they ALMOST made it to the series, but lost to a team that won 83 games .......... hhhahahahaahahahahahahaha


...and that team went on to win the World Series. :shrug:

[fquaye14ten]

Explain to me how Alou is better than Burell? How Reyes is better than Rollins who now thinking about it are about the same.. no real advantage.

Did you not see where I gave you the #'s? They have better OPS's than their respective complements.

Good grief

[fquaye14ten]

Like I said in the other thread.. The Mets only have upgrades in 3b and CF and C. Rf Is a toss up, but the Phils have better players at 1b, 2b, SS, and LF. In every math Class I have ever taken 4 players is better than 3 players..

Keep the laughs up though.. you are doing great.

Are you serious? There are only 3 positions in that metric I quoted in which the Phillies have an advantage: 2B, 1B, and somehow 3B

Learn to read. It says the Mets are MUCH better at Catcher and CF, Slightly better at SS, LF, and RF and that the Phillies are much better at 1B, and slightly better at 2B and 3B

[Efilnikufesin]

Did you not see where I gave you the #'s? They have better OPS's than their respective complements.

Good grief

You are right the METS ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER.. We should not even play the 07 season just hand them the WS trophy.. Thankx ESPN!

[Efilnikufesin]

Are you serious? There are only 3 positions in that metric I quoted in which the Phillies have an advantage: 2B, 1B, and somehow 3B

Learn to read. It says the Mets are MUCH better at Catcher and CF, Slightly better at SS, LF, and RF and that the Phillies are much better at 1B, and slightly better at 2B and 3B

You can't see how your Metrics are flawed when they tell you that Wes Helms is better than David Wright.. yet you continue to try and sell that horse shit as gold.

That and you telling me that Utley is a slight upgrade over Jose valtein.. Umm I think the methods are flawed Captain.

[fquaye14ten]

In no offensive statistical category was Wright better than Helms last year.

Wright was only better in HR and RBI---Helms had a better BA, OBP, OPS....of course his OPS+ is going to be better

OPS+ is not flawed---it just doesn't account for every year. So you admit yourself, the Phillies are really only better in two positions offensively.

But go on...keep telling us how EVERYONE on this board are wrong and only you and Hangar are right. You're in good company.

[Efilnikufesin]

In no offensive statistical category was Wright better than Helms last year.

Wright was only better in HR and RBI---Helms had a better BA, OBP, OPS....of course his OPS+ is going to be better

OPS+ is not flawed---it just doesn't account for every year. So you admit yourself, the Phillies are really only better in two positions offensively.

But go on...keep telling us how EVERYONE on this board are wrong and only you and Hangar are right. You're in good company.

I'm sorry but your FLAWED system is telling me that Helms is better than WRight and that Utley is a slight upgrade over Jose :omg: .. Yet you can't admit the system has failed?

[fquaye14ten]

for the sake of argument let's compare the career OPS+ at each position

1B=+13 for Phillies
2B=+24 for Phillies
SS=Even
3B=+33 for Mets
LF=+11 for Mets
CF=+14 for Mets
RF=+39 for Mets
C=+29 for Mets

So things are a little closer to what they expect them to be, however, since Reyes has hit better more recently than Rollins, he's an advantage at SS.

No other position is it even close in either direction

[fquaye14ten]

Pot have you met Kettle?

not really. I'm pretty comfortable with most of the people here and have "known" them for a while.

Meanwhile no one knows who the fuck you are, yet you come in here and act assholish to a bunch of people who don't know you from adam.

[fquaye14ten]

I'm sorry but your FLAWED system is telling me that Helms is better than WRight and that Utley is a slight upgrade over Jose :omg: .. Yet you can't admit the system has failed?

It doesn't say Helms is better than Wright, nor that it would be better to have Helms than Wright. It says HELMS HAD A BETTER BATTING AVERAGE, OBP, AND SLUGGING PCT LAST YEAR THAN WRIGHT, all of which is true.

Likewise for Utley v. Valentin. Utley wasn't that much better offensively than Valentin last season. If you see me compare their career OPS+ you'll see that Utley has a significant advantage over Valentin.

Still waiting to see how this system is flawed

[maurice]

This is ridiculous. If the Mets offered to trade Reyes straight up for Rollins, the Phils would pinch themselves and quickly say "thank you very much." Rollins is a nice player, but Reyes is one of the most valuable position players in MLB. He's more valuable than any player on a 90-win Sox team.

Let's look at some other numbers from 2006 . . .
Rollins .277 AVE, .334 OBP, .478 SLG, 36 SB
Reyes .300 AVE, .354 OBP, .487 SLG, 64 SB

Reyes wins every single category, AND he's 5 years younger. Rollins is in the prime of his career. At 23 years old, Reyes is only going to get better . . . which is scary.

[Unregistered]

A team we beat 20-6 and swept in June.

Last year was such a winnable year and we threw it away. I think it's still kind of up for grabs, though, where any team can emerge and get hot and win it all.

Yeah, but they got hot at the right time and were able to win it all. The Tigers beat us at our own game plenty of times last year and got whipped by the Cards. So my point in that previous statement is the Mets shouldn't get laughed at (or called "phony" :shrug:) for losing the NLCS to a team that then went on to win the World Series.

[Efilnikufesin]

It doesn't say Helms is better than Wright, nor that it would be better to have Helms than Wright. It says HELMS HAD A BETTER BATTING AVERAGE, OBP, AND SLUGGING PCT LAST YEAR THAN WRIGHT, all of which is true.

Likewise for Utley v. Valentin. Utley wasn't that much better offensively than Valentin last season. If you see me compare their career OPS+ you'll see that Utley has a significant advantage over Valentin.

Still waiting to see how this system is flawed

Fails to mention that Helms was a part-time player and only had 240ABs.. Funny how you forgot that.. But your right your system is not flawed at all. :rolleyes:

I can just see it now, Yes we would like to exchange 2b for one year then switch them back.. I can just see Pat Gillick jumping for joy to get Jose for the 07 season.. :rolleyes:

[Efilnikufesin]

This is ridiculous. If the Mets offered to trade Reyes straight up for Rollins, the Phils would pinch themselves and quickly say "thank you very much." Rollins is a nice player, but Reyes is one of the most valuable position players in MLB. He's more valuable than any player on a 90-win Sox team.

Let's look at some other numbers from 2006 . . .
Rollins .277 AVE, .334 OBP, .478 SLG, 36 SB
Reyes .300 AVE, .354 OBP, .487 SLG, 64 SB

Reyes wins every single category, AND he's 5 years younger. Rollins is in the prime of his career. At 23 years old, Reyes is only going to get better . . . which is scary.

I agree 100% that in 2-3 hell even the end of this year Reyes might surpass Rollins, but as of right now they are even..

Why did you only put the stats that make Reyes look better?

[fquaye14ten]

dude besides getting mad at a legitimate statistic, you could observe how the career OPS+ #'s seem to balance that out

your straw men are embarrassingly awful sometimes

[Efilnikufesin]

dude besides getting mad at a legitimate statistic, you could observe how the career OPS+ #'s seem to balance that out

your straw men are embarrassingly awful sometimes

I'm confused on how they are legit.. and now all of sudden like every argument i have with you.. as soon as you get proven wrong you alter the facts to make it fit your case.. :hello:

[zmz]

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o211/zmz723/tags/irchat.jpg

[maurice]

Why did you only put the stats that make Reyes look better?

What did I leave out that supposedly makes them "even"? Number of doubles against left-handed pitchers on Thursday day games in July?

Why don't you just go ahead and list all the relevant stats that favor Rollins. Also, explain how they cancel out Reyes edge in AVE, OBP, SLG, OPS, & SB. That should be a fun read.

[Efilnikufesin]

What did I leave out that supposedly makes them "even"? Number of doubles against left-handed pitchers on Thursday day games in July?

Why don't you just go ahead and list all the relevant stats that favor Rollins. Also, explain how they cancel out Reyes edge in AVE, OBP, SLG, OPS, & SB. That should be a fun read.

HR and RBI's.. And Better Fielding%..

[zmz]

HR and RBI's.. And Better Fielding%..

Those certainly are the most important stats for a leadoff hitter :rolleyes:

[Lucifer]

This is ridiculous. If the Mets offered to trade Reyes straight up for Rollins, the Phils would pinch themselves and quickly say "thank you very much." Rollins is a nice player, but Reyes is one of the most valuable position players in MLB. He's more valuable than any player on a 90-win Sox team.

Let's look at some other numbers from 2006 . . .
Rollins .277 AVE, .334 OBP, .478 SLG, 36 SB
Reyes .300 AVE, .354 OBP, .487 SLG, 64 SB

Reyes wins every single category, AND he's 5 years younger. Rollins is in the prime of his career. At 23 years old, Reyes is only going to get better . . . which is scary.

I find it hilerious how you went through the trouble of looking up their stats to compare but only list the ones that support your point. Well here a few more for ya...
2B- Rollins 45 Reyes 30
3B- Rollins 9 Reyes 17
HR- Rollins 25 Reyes 19
BB- Rollins 83 Reyes 81
Errors- Rollins 11 Reyes 17

Post all the stats when attempting to make a point and not just certain stats. Your not the only one with access to MLB.com or any other stats site.:D

[Efilnikufesin]

Thanks Lucifer.. I didn't have to go and post on them with the comment from ZMZ..

And I think we forget in the age of HR and offense that DEF is the # 1 job of a SS.. Rollins is better at it right now.

[maurice]

I find it hilerious how you went through the trouble of looking up their stats to compare but only list the ones that support your point.

Something here is "hilerious," but it's not my stats. Defensive metrics are only techinically stats, and you didn't list all of them. The two players probably are comparable defensively. BB totals already are included in OBP and OPS. Extra base hits already are considered in SLG and OPS. In other words, I didn't list these things separately, because that would be redundant. Plus, BB essentially is a wash. If I really were cherry picking stats, I would have pointed out that Reyes has twice as many 3B as Rollins.

I'm still waiting for somebody to "explain" how 6 more HR cancels out Reyes edge in AVE, OBP, SLG, OPS, & SB. Any idiot can make a list. How about making an argument?

[Lucifer]

Thanks Lucifer.. I didn't have to go and post on them with the comment from ZMZ..

And I think we forget in the age of HR and offense that DEF is the # 1 job of a SS.. Rollins is better at it right now.

No problem, glad to help. I think when comparing ya have to compare all the stats and not just certain ones and thats why I posted stats that were conveniently left out. Extra base hits is a very important stat just like obs and ops.

I see the 2 of them being pretty damn even and it would be a hard choice to make. I'll put it this way, if I was puting a team together for the next year or two it would be Rollins but if I were puting together a dynesty it would be Reyes cause he still so young. To me you cant go wrong either way.:rock:

[Lucifer]

Something here is "hilerious," but it's not my stats. Defensive metrics are only techinically stats, and you didn't list all of them. The two players probably are comparable defensively. BB totals already are included in OBP and OPS. Extra base hits already are considered in SLG and OPS. In other words, I didn't list these things separately, because that would be redundant. Plus, BB essentially is a wash. If I really were cherry picking stats, I would have pointed out that Reyes has twice as many 3B as Rollins.

I'm still waiting for somebody to "explain" how 6 more HR cancels out Reyes edge in AVE, OBP, SLG, OPS, & SB. Any idiot can make a list. How about making an argument?

I know all about ops and obp. It helps to give a breakdown though. You're obviousley just looking to argue about something. My last post will tell you where I stand on the 2 players. All I was doing was pointing out the stats individually and thats all.

Now if you want to argue about who's the better player between 2 guys that are pretty damn even, then go right ahead.LOL. I happen to think both are excellent hitters but Im not gonna sit here argueing over who's better cause for one....neither wear a White Sox uni and for two...it's just not a big deal so have fun. I would much rather talk about the Sox than two great SS that dont even play for us, its too much like what came first...the chicken or the egg? Who cares they are both damn good. heh heh :D .

[Efilnikufesin]

I see the 2 of them being pretty damn even and it would be a hard choice to make. I'll put it this way, if I was puting a team together for the next year or two it would be Rollins but if I were puting together a dynesty it would be Reyes cause he still so young. To me you cant go wrong either way.:rock:

Thank you for that.. And I agree 100%. Let put it this way.. Both are offensive upgrades over Uribe!

Though, I would not trade Uribe glove work for either one.

[Lucifer]

Thank you for that.. And I agree 100%. Let put it this way.. Both are offensive upgrades over Uribe!

Though, I would not trade Uribe glove work for either one.

Yes they both are. I wouldnt trade Uribes glove either, or his arm.:rock:

[Efilnikufesin]

Yes they both are. I wouldnt trade Uribes glove either, or his arm.:rock:

Well His glove has to be attached somewhere.. of course I would not trade his arm..

[maurice]

Now if you want to argue about who's the better player between 2 guys that are pretty damn even, then go right ahead.
Nah, I'd rather talk about Rollins and Reyes . . . 2 guys who are not remotely "even."

If you both really think that Uribe > Rollins or Reyes, then I agree that there's no point discussing it with you two. I love Uribe's defense, but any MLB GM would trade Uribe for either player in a heartbeat.

[Lucifer]

Nah, I'd rather talk about Rollins and Reyes . . . 2 guys who are not remotely "even."

If you both really think that Uribe > Rollins or Reyes, then I agree that there's no point discussing it with you two. I love Uribe's defense, but any MLB GM would trade Uribe for either player in a heartbeat.

Did only read what you wanted to read in our posts?:jagoff: All we said was we would take Uribes glove/arm over them and thats it. Overall I would take Rollins/Reyes over Uribe too.

[Efilnikufesin]

Did only read what you wanted to read in our posts?:jagoff: All we said was we would take Uribes glove/arm over them and thats it. Overall I would take Rollins/Reyes over Uribe too.

It seems to be that way.. This whole discussion has been people who only want to use partial information so their point looks valid. FQ with his meed up formula that tells us that Wes Helms and Jose Valentine are better than David Wright and Chase Utley.. and Maurice, now forgetting to read the part were we tell him that Uribe DEf is the only thing that is better.

[fquaye14ten]

all right dude.

first of all ops+ is a completely legitimate formula.

second of all it NEVER SAID JOSE VALENTINE(SIC) IS BETTER THAN UTLEY. All it said is that last year Utley was SIGNIFICANTLY better than Valentin rather than SUBSTANTIALLY.

Third of all it ONLY SAID THAT HELMS WAS BETTER THAN WRIGHT LAST YEAR.

Let's look at every # the two put up last year and you tell me who had the better year

Wright:

AB=582
R=96
H=181
2B=40
3B=5
HR=26
RBI=116
SB=20
CS=5
BB=66
K=113
BA=.311
OBP=.381
SLG=.531
OPS=.912

Helms
AB=240
R=30
H=79
2B=19
3B=5
HR=10
RB=47
SB=0
CS=4
BB=21
K=55
BA=.329
OBP=.390
SLG=.575
OPS=.965

In half as many atbats, Helms put up similar #'s. OPS+ isn't a flawed metric at all, it just doesn't explain limited playing time. However, comparing career OPS+ demonstrates clearly who is the better hitter:

CAREER OPS+

Helms
101

Wright
134

Christ...what is your fucking problem. You act like I made the CLAIM I'd rather have Helms than Wright or Valentin than Utley. Go back to the post where I compare them. I have 2B as a strength for the Phillies----thereby saying that Utley is better than Valentin...and when I explain that Helms had a better 06 OPS+ than Wright I make an explicit point to mention that this does not represent anything besides that Helms put up better #'s in limited playing time.

Yet you continue to harp on it, as you continue to harp on straw men in every argument you have ever engaged in on this site, because if you try to engage in an argument using actual facts YOU WILL LOSE.

You continue to subscribe to the philosophy "if I deny that the first principle of argument I am losing exists then I can never lose an argument."

It's a sophomoric tactic, and the majority of intelligent posters on this site are really getting fed up with it

[maurice]

To the twins:

Good luck taking Uribe's arm but not his bat.
:rolleyes:

This whole discussion has been people who only want to use partial information so their point looks valid.

Self-pwned.

You (plural) are attempting to "argue" against people who are using comprehensive stats.

Your only response is the vital importance of 2B, HR, and RBI to a leadoff-hitting SS. Yet, the super-powerful Rollins still somehow manages to generate a lower SLG and OPS than Reyes.
:rolleyes:

Take your BS back to your Phil's fan site. Only a cheezewhiz-sandwich-eating, Rocky-ass-licking, red-pinstriped-coolaid drinking moron would believe your bullshit. No offense.

[Unregistered]

Take your BS back to your Phil's fan site. Only a cheezewhiz-sandwich-eating, Rocky-ass-licking, red-pinstriped-coolaid drinking moron would believe your bullshit. No offense.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/2742/talladeganightsopeningma6.jpg

"What? I said 'with all due respect!'"
"Just because you say that doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want to me!"
"Yes, it does!"
"No, it doesn't!"
"It's in the Geneva Convention, look it up!

[Efilnikufesin]

To the twins:

Good luck taking Uribe's arm but not his bat.
:rolleyes:



Self-pwned.

You (plural) are attempting to "argue" against people who are using comprehensive stats.

Your only response is the vital importance of 2B, HR, and RBI to a leadoff-hitting SS. Yet, the super-powerful Rollins still somehow manages to generate a lower SLG and OPS than Reyes.
:rolleyes:

Take your BS back to your Phil's fan site. Only a cheezewhiz-sandwich-eating, Rocky-ass-licking, red-pinstriped-coolaid drinking moron would believe your bullshit. No offense.


Maurice,what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.:rock:

Lastly.. The M in your name should be capitalized..But, carry on with the spelling lessons we all are learning so much from it.

[Unregistered]

Maurice,what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.:rock:


Wow, did you come up with that yourself? That was AWESOME! Seriously, you should start your own blog.

[fquaye14ten]

that was funny 12 years ago when that movie came out, I guess

[maurice]

that was funny 12 years ago when that movie came out, I guess


Nobody cares what you think, cuz . . . um . . . oh, yeah . . . cuz your user name doesn't begin with a capital "F." Also, cuz you're a dummy!


:jagoff: :jagoff: :jagoff:

[Myrtle]

[Evilefilnikucifer]

:rolling:

I vote that all three of them have their names changed to that asap.