Pat Tillman

[Prope]

It is heating up again... (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/07/17/TILLMAN.TMP&tsp=1)

The Democrats' most tenacious investigator, House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Henry Waxman of Los Angeles, joined by the panel's ranking Republican, Rep. Tom Davis of Virginia, announced Monday they will ask Rumsfeld, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers and retired Gen. John Abizaid, who oversaw operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, to testify at a hearing scheduled for Aug. 1.

Waxman's goal is clear from the title of the hearing -- "The Tillman Fratricide: What the Leadership of the Defense Department Knew."

Rumsfeld and the others could resist testifying before the committee, a media event sure to attract almost every TV camera on Capitol Hill. But Waxman holds a powerful card: He is the only committee chairman who can issue subpoenas without a committee vote.

[Erik The Red]

Great, this is just in time for democratic presidential hopefuls to take this and exploit it for the '08 election. :rolleyes:

[Efilnikufesin]

Great, this is just in time for democratic presidential hopefuls to take this and exploit it for the '08 election. :rolleyes:

Why this Solider is more important than any other amazes me.. Just because he played for the Cards?

[CaptainBallz]

Why this Solider is more important than any other amazes me.. Just because he played for the Cards?

Ask Karl Rove.

Tillmans death was exploited ad nauseum by the FOX News set to trumpet the "heroism" and "honor" of Tillman and the war at large. It works wonders on people like Stockdale.

Same as the Jessica Lynch "rescue". Pure propaganda.

Yet the question no war supporter wants to ask: Why is such propaganda necessary when the justness of the war is self-evident?

[StockdaleforVeep]

Why this Solider is more important than any other amazes me.. Just because he played for the Cards?

For once we agree

Just like the one soldier who came back to chicago as a quadrapalegic because he lost his arms and legs, yes he is a hero for serving and is horrific what happened to him, but why does he deserve a headline story in the paper every day and then deserving a city day and a street name, the real heroes are the ones who havent come back and never will

Ask Karl Rove.

Tillmans death was exploited ad nauseum by the FOX News set to trumpet the "heroism" and "honor" of Tillman and the war at large. It works wonders on people like Stockdale.

Same as the Jessica Lynch "rescue". Pure propaganda.

Yet the question no war supporter wants to ask: Why is such propaganda necessary when the justness of the war is self-evident?

Propaganda drums up patriotism and recruitment

[samram]

Ask Karl Rove.

Tillmans death was exploited ad nauseum by the FOX News set to trumpet the "heroism" and "honor" of Tillman and the war at large. It works wonders on people like Stockdale.

Same as the Jessica Lynch "rescue". Pure propaganda.

Yet the question no war supporter wants to ask: Why is such propaganda necessary when the justness of the war is self-evident?

I don't know. I think they're two separate things. The war justification thing at this point just seems to be we'll look like cowards if we leave this year instead of next year, and there will be a civil war this year instead of next year.

The reason, IMO, this is still a story is because it's another piece in a bigger story about how this administration wants to cover everything up, from wiretapping to military mishaps. It's really dumb in this case because they could have said, at the time, that, unfortunately, friendly fire deaths happen in war (hell, he was in the war everyone supported) and we'll investigate and he's still a hero and all that, and no one would have thought much more of it.

[CaptainBallz]

Propaganda drums up patriotism and recruitment

So you obviously support lying to the families of fallen soldiers and the public at large to create a false narrative for purely selfish political ends?

nice, stockdale..

The reason, IMO, this is still a story is because it's another piece in a bigger story about how this administration wants to cover everything up, from wiretapping to military mishaps. It's really dumb in this case because they could have said, at the time, that, unfortunately, friendly fire deaths happen in war (hell, he was in the war everyone supported) and we'll investigate and he's still a hero and all that, and no one would have thought much more of it.

I definitely agree about the bigger picture here. But to me at least, the bigger picture makes much more sense when you look back at what was going on early on with the manipulation of information in the push for war followed by the complete misinformation spread during the "push to Bagdhad". The table was set for everything to follow...and follow it did.
Unfortunately, the do-nothing congress let it all slide and now there are years lies, manipulations, and complete and utter corruption to try and weed through to get to the ultimate truth about this entire escapade.... It was a dupe-job.

[StockdaleforVeep]

So you obviously support lying to the families of fallen soldiers and the public at large to create a false narrative for purely selfish political ends?

nice, stockdale..

Name a war or presidency that does not use propaganda for patriotism

Hell, there was a rather large group of anti war\conscientious objectors during world war II yet look at the propaganda there to drum up american patriotism despite americans dying as well as overall life.

Hell, ;look at the spanish american war for the first example

[Efilnikufesin]

Name a war or presidency that does not use propaganda for patriotism

Hell, there was a rather large group of anti war\conscientious objectors during world war II yet look at the propaganda there to drum up american patriotism despite americans dying as well as overall life.

Hell, ;look at the spanish american war for the first example

Because others do it.. then it is okay to do?

Should we round up all the Muslim Americans, like the Asian Americans were round up during WW2?

[StockdaleforVeep]

Because others do it.. then it is okay to do?

Should we round up all the Muslim Americans, like the Asian Americans were round up during WW2?

I am saying what makes the use before acceptable and use now unacceptable

You cannot cry foul on something when precedence has been set for the past 200 years and prob even before that in europe

I mean whats next, someone gonna complain that the army commercials dont explicitly say "you may get shot at"

What the hell do you want

Because others do it.. then it is okay to do?

Should we round up all the Muslim Americans, like the Asian Americans were round up during WW2?

Just for a fact, you do know other than asians were rounded up right?

Also, people have already made the comparison to how muslims are treated today, its an old topic

[CaptainBallz]

Name a war or presidency that does not use propaganda for patriotism

Hell, there was a rather large group of anti war\conscientious objectors during world war II yet look at the propaganda there to drum up american patriotism despite americans dying as well as overall life.

Hell, ;look at the spanish american war for the first example

Stockdale, I understand what propaganda is and its uses. I understand that posters will be made, generic songs will be sung (God Bless America, anyone?), and triumphant commercials will be made.

We're talking about using veterans (one against her will, the other dead) and completely lying/fabricating a story and attempting to sell it to not only the families of the soldiers, but to the population at large in an attempt to obscure what was really happening on the ground.

You sound like a complete tool trying to justify that. Stop it.

It goes hand in hand with the Administration frowning upon showing flag draped caskets coming home, using manipulated photographs to create a false showing of Iraqi support, the "accidental" killing of journalists, and every other lie that has been spun during this sham of a war.

And, hate to break it to ya, buddy.... but if this is some innocent propoaganda that's beng used to drum up support, it's obviously not working... on thinking people at least.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Stockdale, I understand what propaganda is and its uses. I understand that posters will be made, generic songs will be sung (God Bless America, anyone?), and triumphant commercials will be made.

We're talking about using veterans (one against her will, the other dead) and completely lying/fabricating a story and attempting to sell it to not only the families of the soldiers, but to the population at large in an attempt to obscure what was really happening on the ground.

You sound like a complete tool trying to justify that. Stop it.

It goes hand in hand with the Administration frowning upon showing flag draped caskets coming home, using manipulated photographs to create a false showing of Iraqi support, the "accidental" killing of journalists, and every other lie that has been spun during this sham of a war.

And, hate to break it to ya, buddy.... but if this is some innocent propoaganda that's beng used to drum up support, it's obviously not working... on thinking people at least.
Where did i say justification or not, i simply stated for what it is, you are the one who spun it to make a discussion against me

Who shows the caskets coming in, certainly not the conservative side because it demeans the cause, hence why the vietnam war nose dived very hard when every bloody day the media would report how many deaths to US soldiers and show the bodies coming home. If u wanna blame someone for that propaganda, blame the liberals for showing it

[CaptainBallz]

Where did i say justification or not, i simply stated for what it is, you are the one who spun it to make a discussion against me

Who shows the caskets coming in, certainly not the conservative side because it demeans the cause, hence why the vietnam war nose dived very hard when every bloody day the media would report how many deaths to US soldiers and show the bodies coming home. If u wanna blame someone for that propaganda, blame the liberals for showing it

:confused:

you honestly think the Vietnam war failed because people knew that people were dying??? You are one confused boy if you actually think that showing people the ultimate sacrifices that soldiers have made for a cause DEMEANS that cause.

During WWII FDR firmly believed in relaying the realities of the effort to the people at home and that THEN they would fully be able to grasp how much their sacrifices were needed. Oh, but I forgot, there's not supposed to be any sacrifice for this war. Here, have a tax cut.

And no, I wasn't spinning into an argument against you, I was pointing out that it's worse than you think it just "is". Not sure if you can grasp it though...

[thewalkoffshot]

Just like the one soldier who came back to chicago as a quadrapalegic because he lost his arms and legs, yes he is a hero for serving and is horrific what happened to him, but why does he deserve a headline story in the paper every day and then deserving a city day and a street name, the real heroes are the ones who havent come back and never will



Are you serious? I don't really understand the difference here, his life isn't the same, never will be, almost as if he were dead, but he's not a "real hero" because he only lost his ability to move on his own and his limbs?

[StockdaleforVeep]

:confused:

you honestly think the Vietnam war failed because people knew that people were dying??? You are one confused boy if you actually think that showing people the ultimate sacrifices that soldiers have made for a cause DEMEANS that cause.

During WWII FDR firmly believed in relaying the realities of the effort to the people at home and that THEN they would fully be able to grasp how much their sacrifices were needed. Oh, but I forgot, there's not supposed to be any sacrifice for this war. Here, have a tax cut.

And no, I wasn't spinning into an argument against you, I was pointing out that it's worse than you think it just "is". Not sure if you can grasp it though...

No i did not say its why it failed, im saying more anti war support was drumed up by showing the bodies come home, etc etc
It became an issue that the presidents could not avoid because it was being put on the media nightly
Hell, anti war libs do it now too, with their little protests and putting pairs of boots to show how many died. SHould we remember and honor them? Yes but they are not honored that way

Are you serious? I don't really understand the difference here, his life isn't the same, never will be, almost as if he were dead, but he's not a "real hero" because he only lost his ability to move on his own and his limbs?

Why dont we have a street or day for every chicago soldier who has died in Iraq? What makes that one guy more special he should be honored, be given money, cars, etc. Yes his life will never be the same but how is his life more valued than someone else. Guys have come back from iraq missing arms and such, they didnt get a parade

IMO, a hero is someone who ends up not returning from service and paid the ultimate sacrifice for their duty(Same goes for police, firemen, etc)
All the firemen who died doing their jobs in 9\11 are heroes in my book

[CaptainBallz]

No i did not say its why it failed, im saying more anti war support was drumed up by showing the bodies come home, etc etc
It became an issue that the presidents could not avoid because it was being put on the media nightly
Hell, anti war libs do it now too, with their little protests and putting pairs of boots to show how many died. SHould we remember and honor them? Yes but they are not honored that way


the anti-war movement was more motivated by the irrational justifications for the war, the escalations, the draft, and the reality of people not coming home. yeah, the media showed what was going on over there. That's what media's are supposed to do... in a democracy.. with a free media.... Remember these concepts??? It's supposed to be what this country is fighting for.

And who the hell are you to say how to honor dead troops. By your statements, you think the best way to honor them is to ignore their sacrifices and make up bogus reasons for why and how they sacrificed in the first place. How does this make any sense to you at all?
Or is it when the truth becomes too inconvenient, you choose to ignore it and accept an alternate reality?

So I guess the Vietnam Memorial is a bad way to honor the fallen too? Arlington National Cemetery?

I know, I know... too many names. Too many dead people. That's not how we want to think about these things..:rolleyes:

[StockdaleforVeep]

the anti-war movement was more motivated by the irrational justifications for the war, the escalations, the draft, and the reality of people not coming home. yeah, the media showed what was going on over there. That's what media's are supposed to do... in a democracy.. with a free media.... Remember these concepts??? It's supposed to be what this country is fighting for.

And who the hell are you to say how to honor dead troops. By your statements, you think the best way to honor them is to ignore their sacrifices and make up bogus reasons for why and how they sacrificed in the first place. How does this make any sense to you at all?
Or is it when the truth becomes too inconvenient, you choose to ignore it and accept an alternate reality?

So I guess the Vietnam Memorial is a bad way to honor the fallen too? Arlington National Cemetary?

I know, I know... too many names. Too many dead people. That's not how we want to think about these things..:rolleyes:

The vietnam memorial is a different thing and arlington is the service cemetary

[CaptainBallz]

The vietnam memorial is a different thing and arlington is the service cemetary

:confused:

what?!

:rolling:

[maurice]

Who shows the caskets coming in

Nobody, because the administration banned filming.

You're right. It's all propaganda--extremely dishonest propaganda.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Nobody, because the administration banned filming.

You're right. It's all propaganda--extremely dishonest propaganda.

So yer saying during the vietnam war they didnt have cbs and others showing that?

Hell, theyve shown clips of it on history channel for the specific purpose of showing the effect

There is a reason why vietnam was called the first television war

[CaptainBallz]

So yer saying during the vietnam war they didnt have cbs and others showing that?

Hell, theyve shown clips of it on history channel for the specific purpose of showing the effect

There is a reason why vietnam was called the first television war

yeah, stockdale we know that that was shown during Vietnam. And during WWII, there'd be newreels in theaters showing battle clips before movies.

None of this proves whatever it is your point is. There were much larger reasons for the backlash against the Vietnam war than the fact that reporters were reporting on it.

[StockdaleforVeep]

yeah, stockdale we know that that was shown during Vietnam. And during WWII, there'd be newreels in theaters showing battle clips before movies.

None of this proves whatever it is your point is. There were much larger reasons for the backlash against the Vietnam war than the fact that reporters were reporting on it.

I never said the prime reason was due to tv, i said the media helped drum up more anti war protesting because it was unavoidable to see

[CaptainBallz]

I never said the prime reason was due to tv, i said the media helped drum up more anti war protesting because it was unavoidable to see

But people saw footage during WWII, yet morale didn't erode.

THE MAIN reason there was not support for Vietnam was because of what it was and the false reasons it was being fought.

You should be able to admit that if the Iraq war really was as just as it supposedly is, there really wouldn't be an outcry about the "dishonor" of showing dead and dying troops, but a humbling in the face of the "great task" at hand.

This is not the case. The administration knows it. Therefore, they shy away from showing the truth about the conflict and instead spin fabricated stories to explicitly create a "new truth".

What does it take for an alarm to go off here?

[Sir Realist]

The war in Iraq is a fucking joke and has been from day one. I would even go so far as to say it's not even really a war. If this country needs to go to war, then the draft should be immediately reinstated and huge sacrifices would obviously be needed by every citizen of this country. Rosie the Riveters would be dusting off their work boots by the thousands.

When we REALLY need to go to war, we will absolutely crush anybody that stands in our way, and that's a good thing. In the mean time, the state department will continue to seek out battles that have nothing to do with America's national security and exploit our military might by sending it on little police excursions that only serve the interest of the big corporations.

The Faux News Network and Bush's minions did a nice job of selling Iraq as if it was necessary as our interdiction in Afghanistan. These lies helped keep the armed forces recruitment lines moving for awhile, but folks have caught on. Anybody joining our armed forces today would have to be considered an idiot. Those jobs don't pay enough to be a bullet stopper on America's Corporate Police Force.

Drastic changes need to be made, and they sure as hell won't come from that group of pussies that calls themselves "Democrats".

Revolution now? :confused:

[StockdaleforVeep]

The Faux News Network and Bush's minions did a nice job of selling Iraq as if it was necessary as our interdiction in Afghanistan. These lies helped keep the armed forces recruitment lines moving for awhile, but folks have caught on. Anybody joining our armed forces today would have to be considered an idiot. Those jobs don't pay enough to be a bullet stopper on America's Corporate Police Force.


Way to insult those who joined and willingly serve proud

Your statement like that makes you no better than the lies you claim fed by the news networks

[CaptainBallz]

Way to insult those who joined and willingly serve proud

Your statement like that makes you no better than the lies you claim fed by the news networks

Give it up, stockdale... You waived your right at moral indignation when you shrugged of the administration using a soldiers death for propaganda, even going as far as lying to his family...

you're not a "troop lover" or a "troop supporter"... so just stop already.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Give it up, stockdale... You waived your right at moral indignation when you shrugged of the administration using a soldiers death for propaganda, even going as far as lying to his family...

you're not a "troop lover" or a "troop supporter"... so just stop already.

I support the troops

Hope they get the job done and get home soon

be sure you and your kind dont spit on em when they return

[Efilnikufesin]

Way to insult those who joined and willingly serve proud

Your statement like that makes you no better than the lies you claim fed by the news networks

What is doing that is insulting? Most of the military people were tricked in a sense to join up thinking they are helping their nation.. when i fact they are hurting it. I fail to see where in his statement there is anything of insult. Look we all know that if you join up.. you are getting shipped over to Iraq and for what 12k a year, and if you get out alive your college tuition paid for.

What I find funny.. Anyone notice this admin Cut the benefits for college students? So now under priveilged kids have to join the fight for profits in order to make it in this world.. While the ones who are making the decisions children sit at home.. The Rich get Richer.. The Poor get dead.

[StockdaleforVeep]

What I find funny.. Anyone notice this admin Cut the benefits for college students? So now under priveilged kids have to join the fight for profits in order to make it in this world.. While the ones who are making the decisions children sit at home.. The Rich get Richer.. The Poor get dead.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/college/2007-02-06-bush-loans-usat_x.htm
http://media.www.diamondbackonline.com/media/storage/paper873/news/2007/02/06/News/Bush-Proposes.Raising.Pell.Grant.Funding.By.550-2699521.shtml

A reason i was able to finish college was thanks to President Bush

[Sir Realist]

Way to insult those who joined and willingly serve proud

Your statement like that makes you no better than the lies you claim fed by the news networks

Anybody joining our armed forces today would have to be considered an idiot. Those jobs don't pay enough to be a bullet stopper on America's Corporate Police Force.

You need to work on your tenses.

[StockdaleforVeep]

You need to work on your tenses.

No i did read it

I have many friends who joined the national guard and served their time in iraq and came back safely

They are not poor and they either finished or in the process of finishing their education and one ended up going career and married his current wife who is an officer

Just because you wont\cant serve doesnt mean you get the right to insult brave people
I woulda joined airforce but i didnt meet the requirements

[Efilnikufesin]

I support the troops

Hope they get the job done and get home soon

be sure you and your kind dont spit on em when they return

You don't support the troops you support the cause.. big difference. If 15k more have to die.. so what.. at least we are going to force our way onto those damn Muslims. :shrug:

[StockdaleforVeep]

You don't support the troops you support the cause.. big difference. If 15k more have to die.. so what.. at least we are going to force our way onto those damn Muslims. :shrug:

I support both but i will never cease my support for the troops and wish them home soon

[Efilnikufesin]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/college/2007-02-06-bush-loans-usat_x.htm
http://media.www.diamondbackonline.com/media/storage/paper873/news/2007/02/06/News/Bush-Proposes.Raising.Pell.Grant.Funding.By.550-2699521.shtml

A reason i was able to finish college was thanks to President Bush

So you give me two pruposed ideas from Bush.. as your examples.. and being you are what 23/4 range.. His budget cuts didn't effect you.

[Sir Realist]

The invasion of Iraq has been the greatest single recruiting agent for Islamic terrorists. We had 'em on the ropes after we crushed the Taliban in Afghanistan, and then turned around and gave the terrorists a welcomed shot in the arm with our utter stupidity in invading Iraq. Their membership is now bursting at the seams.

The only thing the invasion of Iraq has produced is tons of dead people, including young Americans, lots more terrorists, and big piles of money in the pockets of Haliburton and their likes.

The big winners in the war with Iraq are the terrorists. We've really given them a leg up.

[Efilnikufesin]

I support both but i will never cease my support for the troops and wish them home soon

:confused:

1) Support the Cause.. which is to kill american citizens for profit..

2) Support the troops.. Which is bringing them home safely..and ending Operation Profit.

You can't support both.. esp in this case.

[maurice]

To the extent that "the job" was to depose Saddam and make sure that there are no WMD in Iraq, the troops got the job done a long time ago and should go home.

To the extent that "the job" is to transform Iraq into the equivalent of Japan or a western democracy, then the troops cannot fairly be expected to do the job.

[Prope]

The invasion of Iraq has been the greatest single recruiting agent for Islamic terrorists. We had 'em on the ropes after we crushed the Taliban in Afghanistan, and then turned around and gave the terrorists a welcomed shot in the arm with our utter stupidity in invading Iraq. Their membership is now bursting at the seams.
Interesting how while their numbers have gone up, ours have kind of gone down.

[Palehose13]

Propaganda drums up patriotism and recruitment
http://dna.typepad.com/photos/nz/willowbrook_sheep.jpg


Stockdale, I understand what propaganda is and its uses. I understand that posters will be made, generic songs will be sung (God Bless America, anyone?), and triumphant commercials will be made.

...

And, hate to break it to ya, buddy.... but if this is some innocent propoaganda that's beng used to drum up support, it's obviously not working... on thinking people at least.

I was at the Brewer game Sunday and it was my first Sunday baseball game in at least a year. I forgot how MLB now does "God Bless America" before the 7th inning stretch on Sundays. Watching the masses (sold out crowd) stand up just because of the song kinda made me feel that we weren't very far from this sometimes with the vast amount of blind patriotism:

http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/hitler/hitler-reichstag.jpg

I support the troops

Hope they get the job done and get home soon

be sure you and your kind dont spit on em when they return

:rolleyes:

Being that I've spent over a grand in care packages to the troops, have written letters and asked my students to write letters to individual Marines (as opposed to anonymous Marines), and know my fair share of people from the Marines and Navy who have been to Iraq (two are very, very good friends of mine and are out on disability), I feel that you need to watch how you generalize.

[Sir Realist]

God bless America,
Land that I love,
Stand beside her and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above;

From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans white with foam,
God bless America,
My home, sweet home.
God bless America,
My home, sweet home.

Yeah. These lyrics really reek of fascism. :rolleyes:

[Palehose13]

Yeah. These lyrics really reek of fascism. :rolleyes:

Not the lyrics, but the way the masses react to the that song and almost anything else patriotic nowadays. It looks mindless and pretty much is. It just looks to me like cult mentality. Don't get all defensive god-boy. I wasn't ripping on the song, just how people react to it.

I also love the people that insist on telling other people to remove their hat during "God Bless America" or any other patriotic song. You only need to do that for the national anthem.

[StockdaleforVeep]

http://dna.typepad.com/photos/nz/willowbrook_sheep.jpg




I was at the Brewer game Sunday and it was my first Sunday baseball game in at least a year. I forgot how MLB now does "God Bless America" before the 7th inning stretch on Sundays. Watching the masses (sold out crowd) stand up just because of the song kinda made me feel that we weren't very far from this sometimes with the vast amount of blind patriotism:

http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/hitler/hitler-reichstag.jpg



:rolleyes:

Being that I've spent over a grand in care packages to the troops, have written letters and asked my students to write letters to individual Marines (as opposed to anonymous Marines), and know my fair share of people from the Marines and Navy who have been to Iraq (two are very, very good friends of mine and are out on disability), I feel that you need to watch how you generalize.


Jesus christ, you can take ANY NATIONAL SONG and if anyone shows enthusiasm and love for it you can link it to cultism and mass following. Hell, Why not say people praying together in church is like nazi's saluting and going heil

[Sir Realist]

I also love the people that insist on telling other people to remove their hat during "God Bless America" or any other patriotic song. You only need to do that for the national anthem.

I don't believe we should even have to remove our hats during the national anthem. What's the point?

[Palehose13]

Jesus christ, you can take ANY NATIONAL SONG and if anyone shows enthusiasm and love for it you can link it to cultism and mass following. Hell, Why not say people praying together in church is like nazi's saluting and going heil

Actually...

Looks like a cult, acts like a cult, must be a cult. :shrug:

I don't believe we should even have to remove our hats during the national anthem. What's the point?

My point or the point to removing hats? If you are asking about hats, I agree with you. People would say it is a sign of respect or something, but I don't see wearing a hat as disrespectful.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Actually...

Looks like a cult, acts like a cult, must be a cult. :shrug:



My point or the point to removing hats? If you are asking about hats, I agree with you. People would say it is a sign of respect or something, but I don't see wearing a hat as disrespectful.

so name an organized group that doesnt fit a cult persona

[samram]

Actually...

Looks like a cult, acts like a cult, must be a cult. :shrug:



My point or the point to removing hats? If you are asking about hats, I agree with you. People would say it is a sign of respect or something, but I don't see wearing a hat as disrespectful.

I'm all for just not having the national anthem before sporting events. I don't see what that adds to the proceedings. I don't think anyone is more patriotic after standing there while some goof butchers the words or adds unnecessary syllables.

[Palehose13]

so name an organized group that doesnt fit a cult persona

Ummmmm...any organized group that doesn't practice worship.

I'm all for just not having the national anthem before sporting events. I don't see what that adds to the proceedings. I don't think anyone is more patriotic after standing there while some goof butchers the words or adds unnecessary syllables.

:clap:

[StockdaleforVeep]

Ummmmm...any organized group that doesn't practice worship.



:clap:



"In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream. "

So GLAAD and the pro lesbian\gay movement is a cult because its views and goals are OUTSIDE what is the majority of society, well, the majority of voters that is

I'm all for just not having the national anthem before sporting events. I don't see what that adds to the proceedings. I don't think anyone is more patriotic after standing there while some goof butchers the words or adds unnecessary syllables.

tvpxVE_kQXg

[Palehose13]

"In religion and sociology, a cult is a group of people (often a new religious movement) devoted to beliefs and goals which may be contradictory to those held by the majority of society. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream. "

So GLAAD and the pro lesbian\gay movement is a cult because its views and goals are OUTSIDE what is the majority of society, well, the majority of voters that is



That isn't quite the definition I have seen of cult, but if you think that GLAAD and the Human Rights Campaign are cults then so be it. I'm not going to argue with how you define an orgainzation. I have a different way of defining cults, I guess.

[StockdaleforVeep]

That isn't quite the definition I have seen of cult, but if you think that GLAAD and the Human Rights Campaign are cults then so be it. I'm not going to argue with how you define an orgainzation. I have a different way of defining cults, I guess.

If u want to call christianity a cult, i will call glaad a cult

[samram]

tvpxVE_kQXg

C'mon Stockdale. I loved hearing the national anthem before Hawks games, but it did not make me feel more patriotic. It was great because it got the crowd into the game.

At least Messmer did it right.

[StockdaleforVeep]

C'mon Stockdale. I loved hearing the national anthem before Hawks games, but it did not make me feel more patriotic. It was great because it got the crowd into the game.

At least Messmer did it right.

Its something nice for kids to say

[Palehose13]

If u want to call christianity a cult, i will call glaad a cult

I really don't care.

But since you used wikipedia for your definition of cult (and totally ignored the other definitions given), how about this wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_groups_referred_to_as_cults).

Sure are a lot of religions on there. What makes one religion a cult, but some others not a cult?

[StockdaleforVeep]

I really don't care.

But since you used wikipedia for your definition of cult (and totally ignored the other definitions given), how about this wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_groups_referred_to_as_cults).

Sure are a lot of religions on there. What makes one religion a cult, but some others not a cult?

Ok, from websters then

5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

[Palehose13]

Ok, from websters then

5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

How about showing them all instead of picking and choosing what might* work for your argument.

The Merriam-Webster online dictionary lists five different meanings of the word "cult".

Formal religious veneration
A system of religious beliefs and ritual; also: its body of adherents;
A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents;
A system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator;
Great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book).


The Random House Unabridged Dictionary definitions are:

A particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies;
An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers;
The object of such devotion;
A group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc;
Group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols;
A religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader;
The members of such a religion or sect;
Any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

*I see devotion in that definition something akin to religious devotion.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Well yer the one who said nazism(not a religion) and christianity are cults

So what is it, is a cult a religion or a belief

[Palehose13]

Well yer the one who said nazism(not a religion) and christianity are cults

So what is it, is a cult a religion or a belief

I never called christianity a cult. However, I do feel that religions are cults. ALL religions. For my thought on what a cult is, I will refer to Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

I know that I am in very much the minority, but that is because almost everyone identifies with some religion. So I ask of you, what makes your religion not a cult, but other religions a cult?

As far as the Nazi comment, I was commenting on the involuntary reactions many Americans have to patriotic ideology. Much like "Heil" to Hitler.

[1951Campbell]

Not the lyrics, but the way the masses react to the that song and almost anything else patriotic nowadays. It looks mindless and pretty much is. It just looks to me like cult mentality.

"The masses"?

:ridiculous:

This backlash against "patriotism" is getting absurd. Seems like anyone who outwardly expresses a fondness for America gets branded a "fascist!" by a persistent minority of folks out there.

[CaptainBallz]

"The masses"?

:ridiculous:

This backlash against "patriotism" is getting absurd. Seems like anyone who outwardly expresses a fondness for America gets branded a "fascist!" by a persistent minority of folks out there.

Well, as Samuel Johnson said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the other persistent minority of people that constantly try and usurp the notion of patriotism and define it in their own narrow-minded way.
I think there needs to be a constant lashing out against what can be considered "false patriotism", which a certain group of people from a certain ideological mindset have tried to make their safe haven.
Of course, nobody's going to brand as a "fascist" anyone that says "I love my country" (even though their is a sort of bigoted pride in such a statement). But when that statement turns into a definition of what loving a country means, especially when that definition runs counter to what said country stands for, there is nothing less than a need for a persistent minority of people to call that pig a pig and set the record straight.

"God Bless America" becoming "national anthem II" is a perfect example of a patriotic notion being usurped by a certain minority and used not so much as a simple showing of national pride, but as a propagandist's tool for questionable political purposes.

[Efilnikufesin]

Not the lyrics, but the way the masses react to the that song and almost anything else patriotic nowadays. It looks mindless and pretty much is. It just looks to me like cult mentality. Don't get all defensive god-boy. I wasn't ripping on the song, just how people react to it.

I also love the people that insist on telling other people to remove their hat during "God Bless America" or any other patriotic song. You only need to do that for the national anthem.

Pale.. I am tearing up from this and your other posts.. Finally someone else that gets what the administration is attempting on doing.

I sit during the Sunday games when they attempt to sell me on the "mythical figure" bless America. People look and stare.. I also find it a perfect time to go to the bathroom, or anything else. I would think after all these years they would have rid the public of that song. I see no place for it anymore, for some reason the rednecks of America still think that Christian is the only way... :jagoff: And yes I am ripping the song and its blindly meaning.. there is no place for that BS in todays society.

"The masses"?

:ridiculous:

This backlash against "patriotism" is getting absurd. Seems like anyone who outwardly expresses a fondness for America gets branded a "fascist!" by a persistent minority of folks out there.

Blindly following is not Patriotism..

[1951Campbell]

Well, as Samuel Johnson said, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the other persistent minority of people that constantly try and usurp the notion of patriotism and define it in their own narrow-minded way.
I think there needs to be a constant lashing out against what can be considered "false patriotism", which a certain group of people from a certain ideological mindset have tried to make their safe haven.
Of course, nobody's going to brand as a "fascist" anyone that says "I love my country" (even though their is a sort of bigoted pride in such a statement). But when that statement turns into a definition of what loving a country means, especially when that definition runs counter to what said country stands for, there is nothing less than a need for a persistent minority of people to call that pig a pig and set the record straight.

"God Bless America" becoming "national anthem II" is a perfect example of a patriotic notion being usurped by a certain minority and used not so much as a simple showing of national pride, but as a propagandist's tool for questionable political purposes.

"False patriotism"? Sounds a little Orwellian, amigo. Who decides what "true patriotism" is?

You kind of lost me in the bolded part there, I think your brain was quicker than your fingers.

As for "God Bless America", how did it get "usurped by a certain minority"? It started at Yankee Stadium after 9/11, correct? Now it's pretty much SOP in all parks, right? Literally tens of millions of people of all beliefs and all walks of life have sung it at ballparks by now. They're not all war and Bush supporting automatons. Furthermore, it's a really nice song. Lastly, after about six years of singing it during the 7th inning strech, it's not our domestic equivalent of a torchlight book-burning, it's a habitual ceremony that has less meaning than when it started (just like the National Anthem before sporting events).

All this angst about "God Bless America" isn't about calling a pig a pig, it seems like it's just another symptom of Bush Derangement Syndrome. :shrug:

[SoxFan76]

Not the lyrics, but the way the masses react to the that song and almost anything else patriotic nowadays.

I do it because I want to. You don't want to do it? Then don't. Nobody is going to arrest you. God Bless America, a land where you can make your own decisions.

It looks mindless and pretty much is. It just looks to me like cult mentality. Don't get all defensive god-boy. I wasn't ripping on the song, just how people react to it.

Because people love their country? God forbid...

I also love the people that insist on telling other people to remove their hat during "God Bless America" or any other patriotic song. You only need to do that for the national anthem.

It's a sign of respect. Members of the service remove their hats when walking into a building. Again, if you don't want to remove your hat, then by all means, leave it on. You have every right to do so. I think removing my hat for a few minutes is a small sacrifice I can make considering I'm too much of a pussy to actually go over to Iraq myself.

[itsnotrequired]

I don't care what others do during GBA and they shouldn't care what I do.

[1951Campbell]

Blindly following is not Patriotism..

True.

But blindly dismissing any show of fondness for America as "fascism!" shows the same amount of intellectual firepower, i.e., none.

[Efilnikufesin]

True.

But blindly dismissing any show of fondness for America as "fascism!" shows the same amount of intellectual firepower, i.e., none.

Most of the ones who call them selves "Patriots" in recent years blindly follow and call the ones who don't unAmerican . It seems that if you don't agree with what this Admin is doing or you question their policies you are unamerican.. That is what ticks me off mainly.

[StockdaleforVeep]

"False patriotism"? Sounds a little Orwellian, amigo. Who decides what "true patriotism" is?

You kind of lost me in the bolded part there, I think your brain was quicker than your fingers.

As for "God Bless America", how did it get "usurped by a certain minority"? It started at Yankee Stadium after 9/11, correct? Now it's pretty much SOP in all parks, right? Literally tens of millions of people of all beliefs and all walks of life have sung it at ballparks by now. They're not all war and Bush supporting automatons. Furthermore, it's a really nice song. Lastly, after about six years of singing it during the 7th inning strech, it's not our domestic equivalent of a torchlight book-burning, it's a habitual ceremony that has less meaning than when it started (just like the National Anthem before sporting events).

All this angst about "God Bless America" isn't about calling a pig a pig, it seems like it's just another symptom of Bush Derangement Syndrome. :shrug:

Thats my lawyer
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Thumbs_up_by_Wakalani.jpg/583px-Thumbs_up_by_Wakalani.jpg

Most of the ones who call them selves "Patriots" in recent years blindly follow and call the ones who don't unAmerican . It seems that if you don't agree with what this Admin is doing or you question their policies you are unamerican.. That is what ticks me off mainly.

And after the election, there was to be the supposed "exodus" of people to canada since Bush was elected

How american is that?
We arent mexico, we dont dump our country to go somewhere else instead of TRYING to fix problems

[CaptainBallz]

"False patriotism"? Sounds a little Orwellian, amigo. Who decides what "true patriotism" is?

You kind of lost me in the bolded part there, I think your brain was quicker than your fingers.

As for "God Bless America", how did it get "usurped by a certain minority"? It started at Yankee Stadium after 9/11, correct? Now it's pretty much SOP in all parks, right? Literally tens of millions of people of all beliefs and all walks of life have sung it at ballparks by now. They're not all war and Bush supporting automatons. Furthermore, it's a really nice song. Lastly, after about six years of singing it during the 7th inning strech, it's not our domestic equivalent of a torchlight book-burning, it's a habitual ceremony that has less meaning than when it started (just like the National Anthem before sporting events).

All this angst about "God Bless America" isn't about calling a pig a pig, it seems like it's just another symptom of Bush Derangement Syndrome. :shrug:

I think you're mistaking what the real "Orwellian" part of it is. It's not the act of saying that there is such a thing as "false patriotism", but it is the act of creating a definition of what "patriotism" is and then using that to generate an emotional response in people to serve purely political ends. That's as Orwellian as it gets and like it or not, is exactly what's happening...

And actually, if memory serves me correctly, the "God Bless America" thing started on 9/11 when the senate made their statement from the steps of the Capital. At the end, supposedly spontaneously, they decided to BREAK INTO SONG... the song was God Bless America-- NOT THE NATIONAL ANTHEM?!?

And no, propaganda and over zealous national pride doesn't have to come in the form of book burnings...

Appreciate some subtlety for once in your life, Campbell...
:D

[maurice]

I've long taken the position that GBA in the 7th inning is dumb, and my argument is rather conservative. The actual tradition is TMOTTBG. Play that. Patriotism is a weak excuse, since GBA is redundant. We already did the National Anthem, which is a far better song and an official American song. A decent argument can be made that the National Anthem should not be played at a baseball game, but this argument is 100 times stronger when applied to the non-traditional, non-official GBA. Taking your hat off / standing / saluting during the National Anthem shows respect. Doing these things during the non-traditional, non-official GBA shows disrespect, IMO. It's like flying your flag at half staff 'cause your dog died. Having Gene Honda telling me stand and remove my hat is even more disrespectful. If you want to do it, fine. Just don't tell ME what to do. I have my reasons, and they're good ones.

Fortunately, the music to GBA synchs nicely with TMOTTBG.

I think you're mistaking what the real "Orwellian" part of it is. It's not the act of saying that there is such a thing as "false patriotism", but it is the act of creating a definition of what "patriotism" is and then using that to generate an emotional response in people to serve purely political ends. That's as Orwellian as it gets and like it or not, is exactly what's happening...

You know what would be REALLY Orwellian? If the government told us that we had to permanently sacrifice freedoms and act super-patriotic because we're at never-ending war with an amorphous enemy. Oh, wait . . .

There's nothing patriotic about blindly following with authority . . . at least not in THIS country.

[Efilnikufesin]

Thats my lawyer
And after the election, there was to be the supposed "exodus" of people to canada since Bush was elected

How american is that?
We arent mexico, we dont dump our country to go somewhere else instead of TRYING to fix problems

How american is it to sit and watch your leader/furher attempt to sell his own personal war as a good thing, and still refuses to admit he was wrong to go into there. And people like you still defending the move? I guess you like seeing our own citizens die for no reason huh? Sicko.

The issue is that there was no good candidate, they were the same one in 04 with the same agenda.. to screw us over. Exactly what has Bush done that make you such a supporter of him?

[StockdaleforVeep]

How american is it to sit and watch your leader/furher attempt to sell his own personal war as a good thing, and still refuses to admit he was wrong to go into there. And people like you still defending the move? I guess you like seeing our own citizens die for no reason huh? Sicko.

The issue is that there was no good candidate, they were the same one in 04 with the same agenda.. to screw us over. Exactly what has Bush done that make you such a supporter of him?

so yes, stay and try to fix

not threaten to leave

mexicans have been doin this and mexico continues to decline

[Efilnikufesin]

so yes, stay and try to fix

not threaten to leave

mexicans have been doin this and mexico continues to decline

:confused: Now we are mexican'ts? Much like the GOP you advoid the issues that are present.. please answer all questions above.

[StockdaleforVeep]

:confused: Now we are mexican'ts? Much like the GOP you advoid the issues that are present.. please answer all questions above.

Its american to stay, to stick it out
Not be a quivveling coward and go "woe, this country sucks, im gonna run to a better country"

Fucking have some sense of self pride, if something is wrong, try to fix it, not run, hence the mexico reference

I suppose since i owe 1300 in back taxes, instead of paying, i should just run to a diff country and evade eh? Thats the liberal way isnt it? Dont come up with an answer, just avoid it\go somewhere else while the problem persues

[1951Campbell]

I think you're mistaking what the real "Orwellian" part of it is. It's not the act of saying that there is such a thing as "false patriotism", but it is the act of creating a definition of what "patriotism" is and then using that to generate an emotional response in people to serve purely political ends. That's as Orwellian as it gets and like it or not, is exactly what's happening...

And actually, if memory serves me correctly, the "God Bless America" thing started on 9/11 when the senate made their statement from the steps of the Capital. At the end, supposedly spontaneously, they decided to BREAK INTO SONG... the song was God Bless America-- NOT THE NATIONAL ANTHEM?!?

And no, propaganda and over zealous national pride doesn't have to come in the form of book burnings...

Appreciate some subtlety for once in your life, Campbell...
:D

I see the point you're making now.

What do you see as a valid purpose of patriotism? Don't tell me the invalid ones, I think I got that part.

mexican'ts?

:ridiculous:



I suppose since i owe 1300 in back taxes, instead of paying...

Sounds like you already didn't pay. ;)

[Efilnikufesin]

Its american to stay, to stick it out
Not be a quivveling coward and go "woe, this country sucks, im gonna run to a better country"

Fucking have some sense of self pride, if something is wrong, try to fix it, not run, hence the mexico reference

I suppose since i owe 1300 in back taxes, instead of paying, i should just run to a diff country and evade eh? Thats the liberal way isnt it?
So how many people do you know that ran off to Canada.. or is that Fuax News told you this.. so it has to be true? Where did you get this idea from?



Dont come up with an answer, just avoid it\go somewhere else while the problem persues

Like Running to Iraq.. that was answer to letting Bin Laden go.. Ahh fuck it, we just start another war.. :confused:

and still have failed to answer what has bush done that makes you defend him so?

[1951Campbell]

So how many people do you know that ran off to Canada.. or is that Fuax News told you this.. so it has to be true? Where did you get this idea from?


Unsurprisingly, you miss the point. All during 2004 you heard over and over and over again from disgruntled lefties that they would leave if W won. W won, and no one left. Empty, petulant, foot-stamping threats.

[samram]

Unsurprisingly, you miss the point. All during 2004 you heard over and over and over again from disgruntled lefties that they would leave if W won. W won, and no one left. Empty, petulant, foot-stamping threats.

One of my lefty friends from Madison threatened that and then moved from Wisconsin to New Mexico. I pointed out that, in fact, Canada is in the other direction, but she didn't seem very appreciative of my help.

[itsnotrequired]

This is like watching a couple turds in the bowl fighting over who gets to be flushed first.

:ridiculous:

[Efilnikufesin]

Unsurprisingly, you miss the point. All during 2004 you heard over and over and over again from disgruntled lefties that they would leave if W won. W won, and no one left. Empty, petulant, foot-stamping threats.

Kind of like.. we are going to get the person(s) responsible for 9/11.. only to nix that for Iraq.. is that the kinda of threats we want :shrug:

Maybe on Faux news you hear that.. I never did. All i heard was please don't tell me Americans are that stupid to reelect this moron..but several months of 9/11, terrorism and him talking with "god" bam.. reelected.

[Palehose13]

True.

But blindly dismissing any show of fondness for America as "fascism!" shows the same amount of intellectual firepower, i.e., none.

Don't you think you are taking what I said a little to the extreme? I didn't call people who are patriotic fascist. I compared automatically (read: without thinking) standing and paying tribute to the Nazis. Do I think Americans are Nazis? Of course not.

If people truly enjoy and want to stand and pay tribute, fine. However, what I witness tends to be a good percent of people standing because they think they should and looking around, talking in a friend's ear, drinking their beer, picking their nose, etc and not really giving a flying fuck about why they are standing, removing their hats and/or putting their hands over their hearts. Hell, I have a guy 2 rows in front of me with a "American by Birth, biker by choice" tatoo with the American flag and that guy was all into GBA. More power to him, but John Q. Public...not so much.


Its american to stay, to stick it out
Not be a quivveling coward and go "woe, this country sucks, im gonna run to a better country"


Interesting. Now, refresh my memory, why did people start settling over here and why have most of our anscestors come from different countries?

[1951Campbell]

Don't you think you are taking what I said a little to the extreme? I didn't call people who are patriotic fascist. I compared automatically (read: without thinking) standing and paying tribute to the Nazis. Do I think Americans are Nazis? Of course not.



Maybe a little. But surely you realize that comparing singing "God Bless America" at a ballgame to seeing Hitler speak in the Reichstag is wielding a pretty hefty rhetorical stick.

[Palehose13]

Maybe a little. But surely you realize that comparing singing "God Bless America" at a ballgame to seeing Hitler speak in the Reichstag is wielding a pretty hefty rhetorical stick.

I was just looking for a picture that showed a bunch of people in the "Heil Hitler" mode. Yes, it is an extreme comparison, but it got attention. Which goes back to questions Stockdale never answered being, what makes one religion (or act of patriotism) a cult and another not a cult?

I suppose that question would piss some off because they obviously have a very negative connotation of the word "cult". If one doesn't react defensively and takes a step back...eh? I mean think of how an outsider would view a catholic mass? What about the uproar from people when someone refuses to take part in a patriotic act. Of course, no one here (is teal needed?) would get upset if the person next to you decided to sit during the anthem or if Carlos Delgado decided not to participate in the anthem ceremonies...right?

[Efilnikufesin]

Maybe a little. But surely you realize that comparing singing "God Bless America" at a ballgame to seeing Hitler speak in the Reichstag is wielding a pretty hefty rhetorical stick.

Not so. Both are promoting a propaganda message.

Stockdale never answered being, what makes one religion (or act of patriotism) a cult and another not a cult??

Simply.. numbers.. if you have a high Volume of people in your cult.. you are then recognized as a religion.. if not.. you are a cult.

[CaptainBallz]

I see the point you're making now.

What do you see as a valid purpose of patriotism? Don't tell me the invalid ones, I think I got that part.



Patriotism in its essence is an exlusionary concept. Since you're asking me to name the valid purposes of it, I can only say that I don't see any.

One might argue that patriotism is a reflection of a society's fidelity to its ideals, but that argument fizzles when the same ideals are held by another nation.
If the same virtues are present in society A as are present in society B, then what is the basis of the pride in society A? It's a hopeless pursuit of verifying that your country is better than that other country for whatever reasons can be found. It's inherently bigoted and generally a useless concept.

[Palehose13]

It's a hopeless pursuit of verifying that your country is better than that other country for whatever reasons can be found. It's inherently bigoted and generally a useless concept.

Can't we all just get along? :69:

[Prope]

There has been some talk about sacrifices in this thread, so much so I'm compelled to post this. (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1942roosevelt-sacrifice.html) I think this one ranks a little bit lower than Jim Valvano at the ESPY's in all-time great American speeches (sorry Hangar, had to)

But there is one front and one battle where everyone in the United States-every man, woman, and child-is in action, and will be privileged to remain in action throughout this war. That front is right here at home, in our daily lives, in our daily tasks. Here at home everyone will have the privilege of making whatever self-denial is necessary, not only to supply our fighting men, but to keep the economic structure of our country fortified and secure during the war and after the war.

This will require, of course, the abandonment not only of luxuries but of many other creature comforts.

Every loyal American is aware of his individual responsibility. Whenever I hear anyone saying, "The American people are complacent-they need to be aroused," I feel like asking him to come to Washington to read the mail that floods into the White House and into all departments of this government. The one question that recurs through all these thousands of letters and messages is, "What more can I do to help my country in winning this war?"

[1951Campbell]

What about the uproar from people when someone refuses to take part in a patriotic act. Of course, no one here (is teal needed?) would get upset if the person next to you decided to sit during the anthem or if Carlos Delgado decided not to participate in the anthem ceremonies...right?

Is pointing out that someone is being tacky really an "uproar"?

Not that I say anything to people at games when they stay seated or don't remove their hats.

Anyway, it's a free country. People can sit for the anthem or GBA, but those people who whine and cry "I'm being repressed!" when they get ripped for it have to undertsand it's a free country.

Patriotism in its essence is an exlusionary concept. Since you're asking me to name the valid purposes of it, I can only say that I don't see any.
One might argue that patriotism is a reflection of a society's fidelity to its ideals, but that argument fizzles when the same ideals are held by another nation.
If the same virtues are present in society A as are present in society B, then what is the basis of the pride in society A? It's a hopeless pursuit of verifying that your country is better than that other country for whatever reasons can be found. It's inherently bigoted and generally a useless concept.

Well, I feel sorry for you if you have such a dark view of what fondness for one's country really means.

[CaptainBallz]

Well, I feel sorry for you if you have such a dark view of what fondness for one's country really means.

that is so cheap, campbell.

this is not, in any way, a dark view of what it means to "love a country". You asked me what the "valid purposes" of patriotism are and I told you.

We're dealing in the realm of "isms" here. If you really want to discuss them we can. Or if your point is to play a "gotcha" game to judge who's Mr. America and who's not, I'll pass..

[1951Campbell]

that is so cheap, campbell.

this is not, in any way, a dark view of what it means to "love a country". You asked me what the "valid purposes" of patriotism is and I told you.

We're dealing in the realm of "isms" here. If you really want to discuss them we can. Or if your point is to play a "gotcha" game to judge who's Mr. America and who's not, I'll pass..

No, no, no, I was not being cheap, I was being sincere. But apparently I've misunderstood what you said.

So "love of country" is different than "patriotism"?

[Sir Realist]

fucking fascist motherfuckers

[StockdaleforVeep]

Is pointing out that someone is being tacky really an "uproar"?

Not that I say anything to people at games when they stay seated or don't remove their hats.

Anyway, it's a free country. People can sit for the anthem or GBA, but those people who whine and cry "I'm being repressed!" when they get ripped for it have to undertsand it's a free country.



Well, I feel sorry for you if you have such a dark view of what fondness for one's country really means.

I think from now on, i am letting my lawyer answer all questions for me, he articulates in ways i can only imagine while in a deep coma

No, no, no, I was not being cheap, I was being sincere. But apparently I've misunderstood what you said.

So "love of country" is different than "patriotism"?

Isnt that the difference between nationalism and patriotism?

For a while in my life i was not patriotic but i was nationalistic, i actually cared about state before nation

[maurice]

[Waits for somebody to bust out more big words like "chauvinism" and "jingoism."]
:popcorn:

[CaptainBallz]

No, no, no, I was not being cheap, I was being sincere. But apparently I've misunderstood what you said.

So "love of country" is different than "patriotism"?

by definition they're the exact same thing.

Now if you ask for "valid purposes" of that love, I can't give you much more.

What's love got ta do, got ta do widdit? What's love, but a second-hand emo-shun...

For the record, it's perfectly valid to have a love and devotion to the ideals that a country espouses. The validity is lost when that love is merely for country above all else, right or wrong.. in any and all forms. That is when the notion is hollow and trouble begins.

So basically, for patriotism to be valid, that country would have to be the pure embodiment of a lovable virtue.
the rest is just pomp..

just so we're all clear:

patriotism
One entry found for patriotism.

Webster's:

Main Entry: pa·tri·ot·ism
Pronunciation: 'pA-trE-&-"ti-z&m, chiefly British 'pa-
Function: noun
: love for or devotion to one's country

[Sir Realist]

I love my country = I'm a patriot.

You love your country = You're a nationalist and you need to be put back in your place and simmer down.

[Prope]

I think from now on, i am letting my lawyer answer all questions for me, he articulates in ways i can only imagine while in a deep coma



Isnt that the difference between nationalism and patriotism?

For a while in my life i was not patriotic but i was nationalistic, i actually cared about state before nation
Did you get your 40 acres and mule??

[Palehose13]

Is pointing out that someone is being tacky really an "uproar"?

Why is it tacky to not engage in something you don't believe in or agree with? No, one person calling out another is not an "uproar", but there sure is a lot of publicity when people exercise their right not to participate:

Abdul-Rauf (http://www.thefreelibrary.com/ABDUL-RAUF+ENDS+ANTHEM+STAND-a083923735)

Toni Smith (http://espn.go.com/page2/s/wiley/030228.html) (and there are quite a few others like this too)

Carlos Delgado (http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/sullivan/20040723-9999-1s23sullivan.html)

From the last article:
Patriotism takes many forms. Sometimes, it's saluting the flag. Sometimes, it's stamping your foot when the government fails to live up to its ideals. Rarely is it enhanced by scheduled songfests or paramilitary rituals at sporting events.

[samram]

For the record, it's perfectly valid to have a love and devotion to the ideals that a country espouses. The validity is lost when that love is merely for country above all else, right or wrong.. in any and all forms. That is when the notion is hollow and trouble begins.

So basically, for patriotism to be valid, that country would have to be the pure embodiment of a lovable virtue.
the rest is just pomp..

I disagree with the logical flow here. If one fights for people's rights to free speech or some other ideal the country espouses, does that not make him or her a patriot if the country itself is flawed? I guess I'm saying that patriotism doesn't just mean going along with whatever the government says, at least in this country. If you're arguing the term patriotic has been hijacked and held hostage by those who believe dissent is dangerous, then I agree with you, but I would stop short of saying that patriotism is only valid given the country itself is the "pure embodiment of lovable virtue."

[StockdaleforVeep]

Did you get your 40 acres and mule??

i wish, imagine what i could do with that

Sex farm

[CaptainBallz]

I disagree with the logical flow here. If one fights for people's rights to free speech or some other ideal the country espouses, does that not make him or her a patriot if the country itself is flawed? I guess I'm saying that patriotism doesn't just mean going along with whatever the government says, at least in this country. If you're arguing the term patriotic has been hijacked and held hostage by those who believe dissent is dangerous, then I agree with you, but I would stop short of saying that patriotism is only valid given the country itself is the "pure embodiment of lovable virtue."

That is a good point and thinking about it, I guess I'm laying out the argument that a love of "country" is not wholly necessary to live according to a love of the virtues it espouses. I'm still basing this around the "valid purpose" of patriotism.

Basically, your fighter for people's rights is doing so out of a virtue that the country espouses, but also out of a personal belief in those same values. If you move him into, say, Iran as an Iranian citizen and have him fighting for the same rights, is he still considered an "American patriot"? Or is he merely fighting for what he considers a virtue?
So, when the virtue is placed above the country that espouses it, it reveals itself as self-sustaining. Therefore, there really is no purpose for patriotism, unless that country is that virtue....

Maybe I'm taking it a bit off the rails... but we do agree about usurped patriotism..

[samram]

That is a good point and thinking about it, I guess I'm laying out the argument that a love of "country" is not wholly necessary to live according to a love of the virtues it espouses. I'm still basing this around the "valid purpose" of patriotism.

Basically, your fighter for people's rights is doing so out of a virtue that the country espouses, but also out of a personal belief in those same values. If you move him into, say, Iran as an Iranian citizen and have him fighting for the same rights, is he still considered an "American patriot"? Or is he merely fighting for what he considers a virtue?
So, when the virtue is placed above the country that espouses it, it reveals itself as self-sustaining. Therefore, there really is no purpose for patriotism, unless that country is that virtue....

Maybe I'm taking it a bit off the rails... but we do agree about usurped patriotism..

Well, I think patriotism necessarily means a citizen of a country fighting for the government of that country to uphold the ideals the country espouses- therefore, the term doesn't encompass the same activities or ideals for all nations. Being an "American patriot" is different than being a "Russian patriot." It's possible for someone in another country to view patriots in another country as goofy or evil.

But I think I see what you're saying. The problem is it's hard for Americans to say that a Saudi who is for Sharia law in Saudi Arabia is a patriot because there are so many bones of contention that we would have with those tenets. Maybe the term just doesn't lend itself to meaning good things to all people.:shrug:

[maurice]

What's all this noise about fighting? I though that being a "patriot" meant hanging a flag outside your house / pickemuptruck in all weather conditions until it becomes torn and tattered, and then leaving it out there some more until it gets faded, and then leaving it out there some more until it falls on the ground, and then leaving it on the ground. Or possibly writing on the flag. Or bitching about Mexicans. Or maybe dodging tours of duty in 'Nam and then sending others to their death.

These things are far more visible in this country than fighting for the rights of your fellow American, and every one of these MFers considers their acts "patriotic."
:shrug:

[Prope]

But I think I see what you're saying. The problem is it's hard for Americans to say that a Saudi who is for Sharia law in Saudi Arabia is a patriot because there are so many bones of contention that we would have with those tenets. Maybe the term just doesn't lend itself to meaning good things to all people.:shrug:
:thumbsup:

What's all this noise about fighting? I though that being a "patriot" meant hanging a flag outside your house / pickemuptruck in all weather conditions until it becomes torn and tattered, and then leaving it out there some more until it gets faded, and then leaving it out there some more until it falls on the ground, and then leaving it on the ground. Or possibly writing on the flag. Or bitching about Mexicans. Or maybe dodging tours of duty in 'Nam and then sending others to their death.

These things are far more visible in this country than fighting for the rights of your fellow American, and every one of these MFers considers their acts "patriotic."
:shrug:
I fucking hate that. Nothing pisses me off more when I hear people bitch about the apparent epidemic of flag burning, but don't bitch about people who leave their flag outside when it is raining.

[StockdaleforVeep]

:thumbsup:


I fucking hate that. Nothing pisses me off more when I hear people bitch about the apparent epidemic of flag burning, but don't bitch about people who leave their flag outside when it is raining.

i do complain about both, sadly and disgustingly, many people dont know about flag\rain standards

infact, i think i had an epic thread on wsi bout it

[Prope]

i do complain about both, sadly and disgustingly, many people dont know about flag\rain standards

infact, i think i had an epic thread on wsi bout it
1. Stop fucking agreeing with me. I feel icky when you do.

2. I think most people, by their own talk, would have to punch themselves in the face if they actually saw how you were supposed to treat the flag.

[StockdaleforVeep]

1. Stop fucking agreeing with me. I feel icky when you do.

2. I think most people, by their own talk, would have to punch themselves in the face if they actually saw how you were supposed to treat the flag.

i follow these standards
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

the only thing i dont do is fold

[Prope]

i follow these standards
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

the only thing i dont do is fold
I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the U.S. Code has the exact rules.

[StockdaleforVeep]

I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure the U.S. Code has the exact rules.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html#5

[maurice]

These people hang a flag to show their patriotism, but their mistreatment of the flag actually shows their lack of patriotism. Sweet irony!

This is a big pet peeve. My patriotism requires me to complain even when somebody simply puts the field of stars in the wrong corner.

[gbergman]

Let Pat rest in peace for fucks sake.

[Palehose13]

Let Pat rest in peace for fucks sake.

Our little tiffs putting him in great angst? I doubt it. However, surprisingly enough, the thread has moved from the original intention to something different. Perhaps a mod may oblige us with either a split or a new title out of respect for Mr. Tillman.

[Sir Realist]

If there's a heaven and Tillman is in it, he couldn't care less about this thread. If there isn't a heaven, he's just a rotting carcass. Nothing to respect about worm food.

[StockdaleforVeep]

If there's a heaven and Tillman is in it, he couldn't care less about this thread. If there isn't a heaven, he's just a rotting carcass. Nothing to respect about worm food.

Worms cant get in modern caskets

[Palehose13]

Worms cant get in modern caskets

Which is really too bad because anaerobic decomposition is pretty damn disgusting adn sometimes the gas in the coffin build up so much pressure that parts of the body explode (usually the abdominal area).

[StockdaleforVeep]

Which is really too bad because anaerobic decomposition is pretty damn disgusting adn sometimes the gas in the coffin build up so much pressure that parts of the body explode (usually the abdominal area).

and?

My point being in a locked and sealed metal coffin inside a concrete crypt, worm aint gettin in there

The horror movies tend to embellish what a corpse in a coffin looks like

Really they look like hippie skeletons

[1951Campbell]

Simply.. numbers.. if you have a high Volume of people in your cult.. you are then recognized as a religion.. if not.. you are a cult.

You just summed up about a thousand pages of Supreme Court decisions and the Internal Revenue Code in one sentence. Accurately, I might add. :D

[Palehose13]

and?

My point being in a locked and sealed metal coffin inside a concrete crypt, worm aint gettin in there

The horror movies tend to embellish what a corpse in a coffin looks like

Really they look like hippie skeletons

You think I'm getting this from a horror movie? I guess I better throw out that Bio-Chem degree.

I'm just sayin' it is sick as hell. Creamation is the way to go.

[1951Campbell]

For the record, it's perfectly valid to have a love and devotion to the ideals that a country espouses. The validity is lost when that love is merely for country above all else, right or wrong.. in any and all forms. That is when the notion is hollow and trouble begins.


I would agree. I would also think you're just a little to quick to find that people are just going the "my country, right or wrong" route. But I hope you didn't think I was trying to bait you, just so we're clear. :hug:

I disagree with the logical flow here. If one fights for people's rights to free speech or some other ideal the country espouses, does that not make him or her a patriot if the country itself is flawed? I guess I'm saying that patriotism doesn't just mean going along with whatever the government says, at least in this country. If you're arguing the term patriotic has been hijacked and held hostage by those who believe dissent is dangerous, then I agree with you, but I would stop short of saying that patriotism is only valid given the country itself is the "pure embodiment of lovable virtue."

Well spoken.

I love my country = I'm a patriot.

You love your country = You're a nationalist and you need to be put back in your place and simmer down.

That reminds me of...

Alcoholic: (n) someone you hate who drinks as much as you do.

:D

[samram]

You just summed up about a thousand pages of Supreme Court decisions and the Internal Revenue Code in one sentence. Accurately, I might add. :D

I'll use that exact wording and nothing else next time I need to defend an entity's tax exempt status.:D

[Unregistered]

One of my best friends in the world was an Army Ranger Staff Sergeant, serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq for over 4 years. He had just gotten back from Afghanistan on January 2nd and was fatally injured on his way home to Chicago from Washington state, where he was stationed.

Long story short, I don't even think there was a blurb about it in the Tribune, save for the regular obituaries. I have no doubt in my mind had he died in combat, it would have been all over the place. I feel like he deserved better, but I guess "War Hero Dies in Single Car Accident" doesn't sell papers.

:shrug:

[maurice]

Alcoholic: (n) someone you hate who drinks as much as you do.

I have a client with 2 DUI convictions, 2 Aggravated DUI convictions, and an arrest for drinking in public. He told the probation officer that "he has never had a problem related to alcohol."
:rolleyes:

[Palehose13]

One of my best friends in the world was an Army Ranger Staff Sergeant, serving in both Afghanistan and Iraq for over 4 years. He had just gotten back from Afghanistan on January 2nd and was fatally injured on his way home to Chicago from Washington state, where he was stationed.

Long story short, I don't even think there was a blurb about it in the Tribune, save for the regular obituaries. I have no doubt in my mind had he died in combat, it would have been all over the place. I feel like he deserved better, but I guess "War Hero Dies in Single Car Accident" doesn't sell papers.

:shrug:

That totally sucks. I'm sorry about your friend. :(

I have a client with 2 DUI convictions, 2 Aggravated DUI convictions, and an arrest for drinking in public. He told the probation officer that "he has never had a problem related to alcohol."
:rolleyes:

You aren't supposed to discuss my case in public!

[1951Campbell]

I have a client with 2 DUI convictions, 2 Aggravated DUI convictions, and an arrest for drinking in public. He told the probation officer that "he has never had a problem related to alcohol."
:rolleyes:

I was just retained by a 26-year-old guy who, even before he walked into my office, had 2 public drunkenness convictions, and 3 DUIs. He got the 3 DUIs in a four-month span.

Why did he come to see me? Because he was charged with public drunkenness and risking or causing a catastrophe while in a drunken blackout.

So I said, "hey, just as an aside here...you gotta quit drinking." His response? "I'm down to three or four nights a week, and I guess I just can't drink hard liquor." :eek:

Bonus: his has two jobs, one of which is washing dishes at a tavern.

[Prope]

Our little tiffs putting him in great angst? I doubt it. However, surprisingly enough, the thread has moved from the original intention to something different. Perhaps a mod may oblige us with either a split or a new title out of respect for Mr. Tillman.
You haven't been here long enough have you??

[Palehose13]

You're a he!!!!!!!!!! :omg:

see below

Maurice was just trying to protect my privacy.

You haven't been here long enough have you??

*sigh* Did I need the teal or do you? ;)

[maurice]

You aren't supposed to discuss my case in public!
;)

[Prope]

*sigh* Did I need the teal or do you? ;)
*Ahem* In my defense, if you weren't gone for long periods of time, I'd be used to your sarcasm and wouldn't have needed that post.

:ridiculous:


I probably would have still posted something :tweaker:

[Palehose13]

*Ahem* In my defense, if you weren't gone for long periods of time, I'd be used to your sarcasm and wouldn't have needed that post.

:ridiculous:


I probably would have still posted something :tweaker:

Is that your way of saying that you missed me? ;)

[Efilnikufesin]

Worms cant get in modern caskets

Please change your avatar, you are a disgrace to what Rollins stands for. Unless that is in mockery of Rollins?

[itsnotrequired]

Please change your avatar, you are a disgrace to what Rollins stands for. Unless that is in mockery of Rollins?

Rollins is a steakhead who looks out for only #1.

[itsnotrequired]

Cheap Trick had a song entitled "Lookin Out For Number One"

What do you mean "had"? The song no longer exists?

[Efilnikufesin]

Rollins is a steakhead who looks out for only #1.

He looks out for Pee? :omg:

Rollins is one of the most intelligent celebs out there. He does his research, he knows the facts before shooting off his mouth.. unlike most. Watch his show on IFC or better yet.. go to one of his shows.. either music or stand-up.. amazing.

[itsnotrequired]

He looks out for Pee? :omg:

Rollins is one of the most intelligent celebs out there. He does his research, he knows the facts before shooting off his mouth.. unlike most. Watch his show on IFC or better yet.. go to one of his shows.. either music or stand-up.. amazing.

quit huffing his dong

[Efilnikufesin]

quit huffing his dong

Sorry if I hold intelligent people in higher regards than say a moron who is ruin.. I mean running the country.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Please change your avatar, you are a disgrace to what Rollins stands for. Unless that is in mockery of Rollins?

Oh fuck u, what the hell do u know bout Hank

Are u a supporter\have you paid to support the west memphis three? Do u even fucking know what they are prag?

[Prope]

Is that your way of saying that you missed me? ;)
Probably.

[Palehose13]

Are u a supporter\have you paid to support the west memphis three? Do u even fucking know what they are prag?

Is this another one of your "poor white boy" cries?


Before you get your tidy whities in a wad, I'm kidding. But weren't you one of the people for the death penalty? I mean, one of the guys did confess.

[Efilnikufesin]

Oh fuck u, what the hell do u know bout Hank

Are u a supporter\have you paid to support the west memphis three? Do u even fucking know what they are prag?

What does that have to do with your views are complete the opposite of Rollins? That would be like me having a Bush avatar.

If you want to turn to personal insults because your argument lacks merit.. go ahead I already know you are a narrow minded individual... another thing Rollins is against.

[CaptainBallz]

WHAT. THE. FUCK!?! (http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/26/ap3958728.html)

The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described," a doctor who examined Tillman's body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors - whose names were blacked out - said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

His fellow soldiers killed him on purpose and the White House is trying to cover it up.

This is just dark shit here....

[Prope]

Just heard yesterday that the general in charge of this case is getting a star taken away from him. He was a 3-star, and with the demotion, he'll receive $1,000 less in pension.

[CaptainBallz]

Just heard yesterday that the general in charge of this case is getting a star taken away from him. He was a 3-star, and with the demotion, he'll receive $1,000 less in pension.

Cruel and unusual punishment, for sure...

[Prope]

Cruel and unusual punishment, for sure...
Yeah, but at least you can't fault them for not acting on this one. The money aside, I think it is more the appearance of the demotion that is the bigger part here.

[CaptainBallz]

Yeah, but at least you can't fault them for not acting on this one. The money aside, I think it is more the appearance of the demotion that is the bigger part here.

The whole thing is very bizarre and reeks to high heaven. My guess is there was probably some mutinous acts going down on Tillman's side or he may have simply said too much.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL&type=printable
Interviews also show a side of Pat Tillman not widely known — a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books on World War II and Winston Churchill to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author

he's also quoted as saying, "this war is so fucking illegal"

He may have made a few enemies on the wrong side...or the right side...

[maurice]

Demotion? F'ing up under W is supposed to get you a medal.

[CaptainBallz]

Demotion? F'ing up under W is supposed to get you a medal.

What do you mean?
http://www.geocities.com/ifthethunderdontgetya/GeorgeTenetMedal.jpg