The Jesus Thread

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I thought it would be neat to have a thread for my main man, the Son of God. Kind of a place where those SACers who are so inclined can discuss things of a Christian nature. A place to ask questions or share resources or even to have a word of prayer.

I hope that is not objectionable...

[Unregistered]

I'm gonne move this to Politics before an anal tag gets used or something... The Locker Room is no place for anything holy...

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Ok, sorry about that, but you are right on it...

[Unregistered]

:shrug: sounds like something dump would say

You turd. I was doing it out of respect for the subject matter. When something's in the Locker Room, it basically means it's fair game. If it's in here, it might at least be HALF taken seriously...

Besides, Dump would say "Um, I don't think so. Closed." or some stock WSI Mod phrase.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

So does anybody dig any podcasts? I like to listen to Greg Laurie's daily message on the way to work. His 30 minute podcasts "A New Beginning with Greg Laurie" are available free on iTunes or on his website (http://www.harvest.org)

[Sir Realist]

Sola Scriptura: In the Vanity of their Minds (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sola_scriptura_john_whiteford.htm)

[Pick a name, Buddy]

That's a lot of words!

[Sir Realist]

That's a lot of words!

I find this stuff fascinating. I can't get enough of it.

[SABRSox]

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/061010_061016/061014_BushJesus_hsmall.widec.jpg

[gbergman]

Praise Jesus

[chisoxfanatic]

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Sections/Newsweek/Components/Photos/061010_061016/061014_BushJesus_hsmall.widec.jpg

Holy cow! The guy on the right looks like Martin Havlat with more hair!

[Dan Mega]

Holy cow! The guy on the right looks like Martin Havlat with more hair!

Thats odd. My roommate has a Havlat jersey. He wears it to games just so he an chant "Haaaaaavlaaaaaat" the whole time. An annoying shithead, he is.

[zmz]

I asked a seemingly perfectly legitimate question on Yahoo! Answers about the size and character of Jesus' dick a couple of months ago. I was fined 10 points and sent a nasty email from Yahoo!

Yahoo! Answers is for old ladies who are embarrassed to oogle the naked Jesus behind the pulpit every Sunday. But not too embarrassed to quit oogling.

[chisoxfanatic]

Thats odd. My roommate has a Havlat jersey. He wears it to games just so he an chant "Haaaaaavlaaaaaat" the whole time. An annoying shithead, he is.

I have an autographed Havlat replica sweater. I love Martin Havlat!

[Prope]

Jesus is just alright with me

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I asked a seemingly perfectly legitimate question on Yahoo! Answers about the size and character of Jesus' dick a couple of months ago. I was fined 10 points and sent a nasty email from Yahoo!

Yahoo! Answers is for old ladies who are embarrassed to oogle the naked Jesus behind the pulpit every Sunday. But not too embarrassed to quit oogling.

Keep in mind that Jesus was most likely crucified au naturel (as was most everyone the Romans slaughtered), so over the years they PC'd it up.

I cannot imagine that Jesus' equipment was any different than any other circumsized Jew of His day.

[CaptainBallz]

Keep in mind that Jesus was most likely crucified au naturel (as was most everyone the Romans slaughtered), so over the years they PC'd it up.

I cannot imagine that Jesus' equipment was any different than any other circumsized Jew of His day.

What if this is "black Jesus" we're talking about?

[SFS04]

Thanks Z-bag.

[BFC]

What if this is "black Jesus" we're talking about?

Jesus ain't no jive turkey

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I am really into bible prophecy and I feel that we are in the last days, as foretold in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation. Over the last couple of years I have been able to attend some studies which have really opened up my eyes and spirit. I was fairly excited recently when our pastor at Cornerstone chose to study the book of Daniel.

So if anyone is interested, here is a link to the messages via the Cornerstone Fellowship (http://cornerstoneweb.org) website. These are also available on iTunes podcasts (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=120150772)

Daniel study (http://cornerstoneweb.org/index.php?m=events&sub=webcast+events) (select Daniel from the drop down menu)

http://cornerstoneweb.org/connected/mini/images/mm-pdcst-03.jpg

I had hoped that I could find the Study of Revelation on the Cornerstone website. It was a 10-hour in depth study by Pastor Todd Spitzer. I have it on my iPod and am happy to burn a DVD for anyone interested.

He did a much deeper verse-by-verse study that has over 30 lessons and is available on his website:

ReGeneration (http://www.recastweb.com/Revelation.php)

Pastor Todd formerly pastored at Cornerstone, but left to start his own church in the inner city of Oakland. If you don't like puns, you will not like Pastor Todd... ;)

[fquaye14ten]

i'm generally in favor of our saviour

[Efilnikufesin]

I finally found Jesus...


he was under my couch... Bastard was hidden away in there.

[Doug Simpson]

http://www.woowoowoo.com/b3ta/jesus_shaves_lrg.jpg

[Erik The Red]

I am really into bible prophecy and I feel that we are in the last days, as foretold in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation. Over the last couple of years I have been able to attend some studies which have really opened up my eyes and spirit. I was fairly excited recently when our pastor at Cornerstone chose to study the book of Daniel.

I read a very detailed analysis of Daniel. I don't have it in electronic form, but I'll read through it again later and try to summarize it.

[ewokpelts]

Dont Fuck with the Jesus.

[zmz]

Solid advice as always from gene

[Sir Realist]

rDHoTOgeNWE

[TeeDeeGee]

g2ixBBFkGuY

[Sir Realist]

d5WOGaYUQWg

[Sir Realist]

Evangelicals Turn Toward ... the Orthodox Church? (http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070827&s=zengerle082707&c=1)

But that story took a dramatic turn 20 years ago, when a group of about 2,000 evangelicals converted en masse into the Antiochian Orthodox Church. The conversion had been nearly two decades in the making. In 1968, a Campus Crusade for Christ executive named Peter Gillquist became disenchanted with the group's parachurch identity, but he could not find an existing evangelical church that met his spiritual needs. Gillquist joined with about half a dozen other similarly disenchanted Campus Crusade for Christ staffers and embarked on what they called, somewhat cheekily, "the phantom search for the perfect church." As Gillquist recounts in his memoir, Becoming Orthodox, "Our basic question was, whatever happened to that Church we read about in the pages of the New Testament? Was it still around? If so, where? We wanted to be a part of it." Much like Wilbur Ellsworth would do years later, Gillquist and his fellow sojourners worked their way back through church history and doctrine before they finally came to 1054 and the East-West Schism and, thus, a fork in the road. One path took them to Rome and the West; the other to Constantinople and the East. Gillquist and the others thought the East was right to resist papal excesses; they also thought the East was right to insist on equality among the Holy Trinity, rather than relegating the Holy Spirit to a lesser place than God the Father and God the Son. They concluded, almost reluctantly, that they were Orthodox.



Wow. It didn't automerge.:confused:

[ewokpelts]

But can he hit a curveball?

[SFS04]

if he can play outfield, i wouldn't mind signing this Jesus fella to the Sox in 08.

[SFS04]

Dude I am probably your second in line here on this site for wanting torii hunter, way to preach to the choir.

[Spider_Pig]

I went to church today, Jesus and I are good buds.

[fquaye14ten]

F PLUS



CLICK

[Timmy D's]

Jesus just left Chicago
And he's bound for New Orleans
Heyyyyyyyy Yeaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

[Spider_Pig]

Did I ever mention I had a pen-pal named Jesus. He sent me a particularly nice Christmas card when we were just little lads.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

So you are saying that you got a Christmas card from baby Jesus??

[Spider_Pig]

Yes, ironic enough that he was able to foretell that we would one day celebrate his date of birth on a mass global level. Chalk up another miracle for Lil' J. :rock:

[Longshot7]

I am really into bible prophecy and I feel that we are in the last days, as foretold in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation. Over the last couple of years I have been able to attend some studies which have really opened up my eyes and spirit. I was fairly excited recently when our pastor at Cornerstone chose to study the book of Daniel.

So if anyone is interested, here is a link to the messages via the Cornerstone Fellowship (http://cornerstoneweb.org) website. These are also available on iTunes podcasts (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=120150772)

Daniel study (http://cornerstoneweb.org/index.php?m=events&sub=webcast+events) (select Daniel from the drop down menu)

http://cornerstoneweb.org/connected/mini/images/mm-pdcst-03.jpg

I had hoped that I could find the Study of Revelation on the Cornerstone website. It was a 10-hour in depth study by Pastor Todd Spitzer. I have it on my iPod and am happy to burn a DVD for anyone interested.

He did a much deeper verse-by-verse study that has over 30 lessons and is available on his website:

ReGeneration (http://www.recastweb.com/Revelation.php)

Pastor Todd formerly pastored at Cornerstone, but left to start his own church in the inner city of Oakland. If you don't like puns, you will not like Pastor Todd... ;)

You really feel we're in the end times? Haven't people been predicting the end times for 2000 years?

I am not a believer. I studied Christianity pretty in-depthly in college, and cannot come to regard it as more than myth and superstition.

Not that I have more faith in other religions - they all seek to explain the unexplainable with better or worse results.

Tenets of the belief structure like heaven and hell, the trinity, Jesus' divinity, 1st century and modern day re-interpretations of the Old Testament - are all things I have problems with.

[Palehose13]

You really feel we're in the end times? Haven't people been predicting the end times for 2000 years?

I am not a believer. I studied Christianity pretty in-depthly in college, and cannot come to regard it as more than myth and superstition.

Not that I have more faith in other religions - they all seek to explain the unexplainable with better or worse results.

Tenets of the belief structure like heaven and hell, the trinity, Jesus' divinity, 1st century and modern day re-interpretations of the Old Testament - are all things I have problems with.

D'OH!

I was hoping we'd let them have a thread to themselves.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

It is largely true that every generation feels like they are at the end time. However, until now that claim could not be tied to biblical prophecy. I will have to go and find my study of Revelation that bears this out...

[Spider_Pig]

http://static.flickr.com/45/183841406_3046bc6807_o.jpg

[Longshot7]

It is largely true that every generation feels like they are at the end time. However, until now that claim could not be tied to biblical prophecy. I will have to go and find my study of Revelation that bears this out...

I figured we could contribute as long as we were respectful.

Fuller, I'm curious to hear about more about your Biblical prophecy studies. Don't you find that problems with translations in different versions render most prophecies moot?

[Pick a name, Buddy]

No, because most translations source the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. A lot of bible teachers (like my pastor) are very knowledgeable in Greek and Hebrew and are able to pass along that knowledge to us as we unravel the scriptures.

[Sir Realist]

No, because most translations source the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. A lot of bible teachers (like my pastor) are very knowledgeable in Greek and Hebrew and are able to pass along that knowledge to us as we unravel the scriptures.

The only people that can truthfully unravel the scriptures are the people that compiled the scriptures. They were never ever meant to be unraveled by lay people, or ANYBODY outside the Church. Without the context of Holy Tradition and the direct succession of the teachings of the Apostles, you end up getting 50,000 different interpretations of scripture and 50,000 popes.

The Bible was compiled by the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. They understood the context the material was written in at the time and have successfully maintained a consistent understanding of scripture for 2000 years.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have been out of communion with each other for nearly 1000 years. Now that we're back in direct dialog with each other it's amazing to see how the theologies of the 2 branches of the Church have remained nearly exactly the same. This is because both churches have valid apostolic succession guiding them.

The Bible is not meant to be taken literally. It's full of translation errors and it's compiled of copies of copies of copies of fragments of other texts. It is not infallible. It's the inspired word of God after it has been sifted through the minds of men.

Some books are more important than other books and some versus are more important than others. The only way to know which are which is to listen to the folks that have had that knowledge passed to them through oral tradition, and those people can only be found in The Church.

[Erik The Red]

No, because most translations source the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. A lot of bible teachers (like my pastor) are very knowledgeable in Greek and Hebrew and are able to pass along that knowledge to us as we unravel the scriptures.
I've done a fair amount of reading into the differences between the Hebrew, Greek, and English versions of the Bible, and it's worth noting that while the Greek word for virgin (parthenos) was used in the Septuagint in Isaiah 7:14, and later translated as "virgin" in the English versions...

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

... in the original Hebrew the word almah, which means "a girl who has reached puberty but is still under the shielding protection of her family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah)", was used. This word was used in other verses as well, and in some cases was translated as "virgin", and in others it was not. It would seem to me that the entire dogma of the virgin birth is the fault of a poor Greek scribe.

Now, honest question here. Given the above, does your religious sect consider the virgin birth as central to their faith? It's my understanding that several sects, including the Anglican Church, are moving away from this.

[BURGH]

My father-in-law's ministry is outstanding.

He has his messages displayed around the country and the world.

He teaches bible doctrine translated from the original Greek.


The key to the ministry, Tetelestai Church, or as he calls it, the Tetelestai Phalanx, is the doctrine and the message; he excludes redundant rituals and the like.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

The only people that can truthfully unravel the scriptures are the people that compiled the scriptures. They were never ever meant to be unraveled by lay people, or ANYBODY outside the Church. Without the context of Holy Tradition and the direct succession of the teachings of the Apostles, you end up getting 50,000 different interpretations of scripture and 50,000 popes.

The Bible was compiled by the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. They understood the context the material was written in at the time and have successfully maintained a consistent understanding of scripture for 2000 years.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have been out of communion with each other for nearly 1000 years. Now that we're back in direct dialog with each other it's amazing to see how the theologies of the 2 branches of the Church have remained nearly exactly the same. This is because both churches have valid apostolic succession guiding them.

The Bible is not meant to be taken literally. It's full of translation errors and it's compiled of copies of copies of copies of fragments of other texts. It is not infallible. It's the inspired word of God after it has been sifted through the minds of men.

Some books are more important than other books and some versus are more important than others. The only way to know which are which is to listen to the folks that have had that knowledge passed to them through oral tradition, and those people can only be found in The Church.

I would respectfully disagree with this. It is clear that throughout history God has sought to confound the wise, the proud, the learned. At the end of the day after you strip away all of the "religion", it all boils down to a personal relationship between you and the Lord based on faith. My faith is that the Bible that I hold in my hand contains every book and every verse that God intended for me to have. It is my daily bread and I believe it to be the inerrant word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't need The Church to pass down the knowledge or interpretation, that is the beauty of it.

[BURGH]

I would respectfully disagree with this. It is clear that throughout history God has sought to confound the wise, the proud, the learned. At the end of the day after you strip away all of the "religion", it all boils down to a personal relationship between you and the Lord based on faith. My faith is that the Bible that I hold in my hand contains every book and every verse that God intended for me to have. It is my daily bread and I believe it to be the inerrant word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't need The Church to pass down the knowledge or interpretation, that is the beauty of it.


You would be pleased to check out my Father-in-Law's ministry then.. he feels the same way. :rock:

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Linky?

BTW, I grew up just north of you in Pymatuning Township (Mercer County)

[BURGH]

www.tetelestai.org

Also, if you like, he burns a cd for me of every message right when its over, I can send you a greatest hits compilation.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I love the mission statement! :thumbsup:

[BURGH]

I love the mission statement! :thumbsup:

PM me your address, I will send you some cds of his words..

He has been dissecting Collossians and Ephesians for the last few months.

His current group of sermons is called "An Apocalypse For Now."

[Erik The Red]

I would respectfully disagree with this. It is clear that throughout history God has sought to confound the wise, the proud, the learned.
This is an unfalsifiable, and thus invalid claim.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

That is the beauty of it Eric. It confounds you, thus you cannot grasp the validity.
It is there though. You don't have to know that but I do...

If God were easy to understand, what point would there be in seeking Him. Only to those who seek Him will He be found. To the rest, it is just so much balderdash...

[Sir Realist]

I would respectfully disagree with this. It is clear that throughout history God has sought to confound the wise, the proud, the learned. At the end of the day after you strip away all of the "religion", it all boils down to a personal relationship between you and the Lord based on faith. My faith is that the Bible that I hold in my hand contains every book and every verse that God intended for me to have. It is my daily bread and I believe it to be the inerrant word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don't need The Church to pass down the knowledge or interpretation, that is the beauty of it.

Then you are going against the very scriptures you claim to have blind faith in. Christ told the Apostles, "Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven." The Bible also give examples of how Apostles are to be chosen as replacements and how the succession is done with the laying on of the hands. This succession remains in effect to this very day in the Church.

God never seeks to "confound" anybody. He loves everyone equally. If you want to find the "proud", look no further than people that believe they alone have enough theological knowledge and background to properly interpret the Bible on their own.

If I write a book and tell you I got as close as I could to getting all the information correct before printing, but it still has plenty of factual errors in it, and many chapters and versus are going to need a face to face explanation of their meaning and importance, how can anybody take that same book and claim it to be infallible? How can anybody then ignore the invitation to an explanation of the context of the writings and then run around telling people they understand it? It makes no sense at all.

The Bible is not inerrant, and we never claimed it was. It's great that so many people love the book we compiled, but it is not to be worshipped like an idol. The only thing inerrant about the Church is Christ.

I know this is a lot of words, but it's a must read for anybody that claims to consider themselves to be a Christian - Sola Scriptura: In the Vanity of Their Minds (http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/sola_scriptura_john_whiteford.htm)

Protestants frequently claim they "just believe the Bible," but a number of questions arise when one examines their actual use of the Bible. For instance, why do Protestants write so many books on doctrine and the Christian life in general, if indeed all that is necessary is the Bible? If the Bible by itself were sufficient for one to understand it, then why don’t Protestants simply hand out Bibles? And if it is "all sufficient," why does it not produce consistent results, i.e. why do Protestants not all believe the same? What is the purpose of the many Protestant study Bibles, if all that is needed is the Bible itself? Why do they hand out tracts and other material? Why do they even teach or preach at all —why not just read the Bible to people? The answer is though they usually will not admit it, Protestants instinctively know that the Bible cannot be understood alone. And in fact every Protestant sect has its own body of traditions, though again they generally will not call them what they are. It is not an accident that Jehovah’s Witnesses all believe the same things, and Southern Baptists generally believe the same things, but Jehovah’s Witnesses and Southern Baptists emphatically do not believe the same things. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Southern Baptists do not each individually come up with their own ideas from an independent study of the Bible; rather, those in each group are all taught to believe in a certain way — from a common tradition. So then the question is not really whether we will just believe the Bible or whether we will also use tradition — the real question is which tradition will we use to interpret the Bible? Which tradition can be trusted, the Apostolic Tradition of the Orthodox Church, or the muddled, and modern, traditions of Protestantism that have no roots beyond the advent of the Protestant Reformation.

[Erik The Red]

That is the beauty of it Eric. It confounds you, thus you cannot grasp the validity. It is there though. You don't have to know that but I do...
There's absolutely nothing confounding about it. Your statement is a logical fallacy, pure and simple. It's the same as if I were to say that it is clear that there is an invisible dragon in my garage. One who asserts something for which there is no evidence for or against, isn't really asserting anything at all.

If God were easy to understand, what point would there be in seeking Him. Only to those who seek Him will He be found. To the rest, it is just so much balderdash...
I've been sitting here for minutes trying to think of a nice way to say this, but I haven't been able to come up with anything, so I'm just going to say it; This is rhetorical garbage.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

One who asserts something for which there is no evidence for or against, isn't really asserting anything at all.




Eric, that is why it is called faith.

Hebrews 11:1-3 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible.

[maurice]

If you concede that your beliefs don't make any sense, you're also conceding that they're no more valid than the worship of invisible dragons.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Sure, why not.

[Sir Realist]

If you concede that your beliefs don't make any sense, you're also conceding that they're no more valid than the worship of invisible dragons.

Sure, why not.

:confused: Umm...uh.... ummmm.... :confused:

[SoxEd]

:confused: Umm...uh.... ummmm.... :confused:

I'm with you on this one.

WTF is FS trying to say here?

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I just listened to a fabulous sermon at church this morning, by guest speaker Pastor Todd Spitzer. (I'll post the link tomorrow)

In general, he was talking about the people that Jesus associated with (basically drunks, hookers, cheats and lepers). He mentioned how Jesus is not a Republican (nor a Democrat) and how He would not be into the politicization that the religious right perpetuates. He'd be hanging out with AIDS sufferers and the rest of society's outcasts.

Pastor Todd told a story about his church, which is in the Tenderloin/Castro District of SF. Right next door, a gay couple moved into the Victorian and adopted a boy (reminded me of Val). Now these gay fellas didn't attend the church and actually avoided contact with anyone there. Apparently, there is a limit to the amount of rudeness and self-righteousness one can take over time.

Anyway, one day the guys came home to discover their house had been robbed! Almost everything of value had been taken! Well, these 2 old ladies (in their 80s!) from the church pooled together some money and went out an got gift certificates from IKEA and Crate & Barrel, and Target and got some baskets of food and wine and delivered it to their home. They told the guys "We are from the church next door and we heard some bad things happened to you so we just wanted to help out a little bit and let you know that we are praying for you and wanted to bless you."

How cool is that? That is what is should be all about...

[maurice]

Pastor Todd is my jam...

...though he should go by his surname.

[Erik The Red]

I just listened to a fabulous sermon at church this morning, by guest speaker Pastor Todd Spitzer. (I'll post the link tomorrow)

In general, he was talking about the people that Jesus associated with (basically drunks, hookers, cheats and lepers). He mentioned how Jesus is not a Republican (nor a Democrat) and how He would not be into the politicization that the religious right perpetuates. He'd be hanging out with AIDS sufferers and the rest of society's outcasts.

Pastor Todd told a story about his church, which is in the Tenderloin/Castro District of SF. Right next door, a gay couple moved into the Victorian and adopted a boy (reminded me of Val). Now these gay fellas didn't attend the church and actually avoided contact with anyone there. Apparently, there is a limit to the amount of rudeness and self-righteousness one can take over time.

Anyway, one day the guys came home to discover their house had been robbed! Almost everything of value had been taken! Well, these 2 old ladies (in their 80s!) from the church pooled together some money and went out an got gift certificates from IKEA and Crate & Barrel, and Target and got some baskets of food and wine and delivered it to their home. They told the guys "We are from the church next door and we heard some bad things happened to you so we just wanted to help out a little bit and let you know that we are praying for you and wanted to bless you."

How cool is that? That is what is should be all about...

It's a lovely story and all... but frankly this is the same thing that millions of atheists/agnostics would have done in the same situation. In fact, I would wager that a higher percentage of atheists/agnostics would have done something like this, knowing in advance that the family there included a homosexual couple. Furthermore, they would have been motivated not by their religion, but the fact that it's simply the right thing to do.

Not only that, but the sermon is ridden with subtly-worded hatred of homosexuals. Sure, there's a great story about the church coming to the aid of a gay couple (which is only as powerful as it is because of the history of bigotry that has been the hallmark of christianity), but he doesn't stop there. He has to color it by likening homosexuals to "drunks, hookers, cheats and lepers". Revolting.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

It's a lovely story and all... but frankly this is the same thing that millions of atheists/agnostics would have done in the same situation. In fact, I would wager that a higher percentage of atheists/agnostics would have done something like this, knowing in advance that the family there included a homosexual couple. Furthermore, they would have been motivated not by their religion, but the fact that it's simply the right thing to do.

Not only that, but the sermon is ridden with subtly-worded hatred of homosexuals. Sure, there's a great story about the church coming to the aid of a gay couple (which is only as powerful as it is because of the history of bigotry that has been the hallmark of christianity), but he doesn't stop there. He has to color it by likening homosexuals to "drunks, hookers, cheats and lepers". Revolting.

Don't jump to conclusions so quickly. Those were my recollections of the sermon in total. When he related the story about the gay couple, he was not likening them to drunks, hookers, cheats and lepers. That was a completely separate part of the sermon, but you wouldn't know that unless you heard it. So chalk it up to my clumsy effort to try to relate too much into my post. But Pastor Todd is the real deal. His congregation in SF is made up of many of the people that have been dumped on by society.

[Sir Realist]

http://deathtotheworld.com/lot/images/lot_header.jpg (http://deathtotheworld.com/index2.html)

A man wrestles with many demons; and often the demon, whom many men could not master with iron bands, has been mastered by the man himself with words of prayer which is in him of the Holy Spirit; and the mere breathing of the Exorcist becomes as fire to that unseen foe. A mighty ally and protector, therefore, have we from God; a great Teacher of the Church, a mighty Champion on our behalf. Let us not be afraid of the demons, nor of the devil; for mightier is He who fights for us.

+St. Cyril of Jerusalem

[Sir Realist]

There is no god.

How do you know? :confused: Did you go to his office and dust for fingerprints?

[The Dude]

How do you know? :confused: Did you go to his office and dust for fingerprints?

How could I go to the office of something that has no proof of existence? Show me proof that your god exists and I'll dust his office for fingerprints.:D

[Sir Realist]

How could I go to the office of something that has no proof of existence? Show me proof that your god exists and I'll dust his office for fingerprints.:D

The fact that you're even here to disbelieve in God is proof enough of His existence.

[LuvSox]

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/1889/largecrosselviswm7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[maurice]

this isn't bible chat, this is a fucking White Sox and laffabout message board

:jagoff:

Actually, this forum is not about the Sox or Laffabouts. It's the forum to discuss politics, religion, and all the other presumably offensive shit that is forbidden at WSI.

Do yourself a favor and don't bother clicking on a thread when you know from the title that you don't want to read it. Or just go post at WSI.

[Sir Realist]

It takes a ton of faith to be an atheist. I suppose for some of 'em, rallying against God-believers helps get their blood going so they can carry on with their faith for another day.

[Timmy D's]

I scored an 0000 Jesus signed rookie card the other day on Ebay.

[Erik The Red]

It takes a ton of faith to be an atheist. I suppose for some of 'em, rallying against God-believers helps get their blood going so they can carry on with their faith for another day.

:rolling:

I think you have officially used every play in the christianity-apologist playbook.

I'm dying to know what those who base themselves on reason and evidence have so much faith in. Care to illuminate us all?

[The Dude]

:jagoff:

Actually, this forum is not about the Sox or Laffabouts. It's the forum to discuss politics, religion, and all the other presumably offensive shit that is forbidden at WSI.

Do yourself a favor and don't bother clicking on a thread when you know from the title that you don't want to read it. Or just go post at WSI.

Do yourself a favor and go fist yourself.

The fact that you're even here to disbelieve in God is proof enough of His existence.

Not really.
But anyways, I'll leave you have your Jesus thread, just don't try this at a public school or try to enter it in my Biology textbook. :D

[JohnBasedowYoda]

The fact that you're even here to disbelieve in God is proof enough of His existence.


Chips is Pontiff

[fquaye14ten]

wow

[JohnBasedowYoda]

I scored an 0000 Jesus signed rookie card the other day on Ebay.

I've got a Deny Me Three Times Hat Trick card

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I'm bein' repressed!!

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail007.jpg

[the fluffer]

:rolling:

I think you have officially used every play in the christianity-apologist playbook.

I'm dying to know what those who base themselves on reason and evidence have so much faith in. Care to illuminate us all?


Aren't you getting married in a church in a few months? As a devote catholic, should I be worried about my status as bestman? :D

[Erik The Red]

Aren't you getting married in a church in a few months? As a devote catholic, should I be worried about my status as bestman? :D

http://soxandthecity.net/forums/showpost.php?p=204600&postcount=82

[SFS04]

Cira's senile.

[Sir Realist]

:rolling:

I think you have officially used every play in the christianity-apologist playbook.

I'm dying to know what those who base themselves on reason and evidence have so much faith in. Care to illuminate us all?

There is no proof that God doesn't exist so it takes a ton of faith to be sure He doesn't.

I consider myself a person of faith, and being a person of faith, I often have strong doubts about what I believe in.

But there you are... completely sure that there is no God. I've gotta hand it to ya. You've got more faith than I do.

Atheists and Fundies: Two Pees in a Pod.

BTW, being an atheist and getting married is one of the stupidest things I can think of. Life is gonna be awfully short. If there's nothing after this show, I'll be damned if I'm gonna tie myself to one vagina the rest of my life. It's borderline retarded.

[Unregistered]

There is no proof that God doesn't exist so it takes a ton of faith to be sure He doesn't.


I don't think it takes much faith at all to not believe. In fact, I think the whole point of not believing in a higher power shows the complete lack of faith in anything other than hard evidence and scientific fact. And considering how little evidence there actually is that a higher power exists other than a bunch of handed-down stories, it's pretty fucking easy not to believe, IMO.

Faith is what is needed to believe that throughout all the hardship, indignity, poverty, murder, rape, etc. in the worls, that there is someone up there who actually gives a shit about what's going on down here.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

.

BTW, being an atheist and getting married is one of the stupidest things I can think of. Life is gonna be awfully short. If there's nothing after this show, I'll be damned if I'm gonna tie myself to one vagina the rest of my life. It's borderline retarded.


Doesn't islam allow 4 wives?

I don't think it takes much faith at all to not believe. In fact, I think the whole point of not believing in a higher power shows the complete lack of faith in anything other than hard evidence and scientific fact. And considering how little evidence there actually is that a higher power exists other than a bunch of handed-down stories, it's pretty fucking easy not to believe, IMO.

Faith is what is needed to believe that throughout all the hardship, indignity, poverty, murder, rape, etc. in the worls, that there is someone up there who actually gives a shit about what's going on down here.

I think it takes faith to believe that your view of God is correct. Whether you are atheist, agnostic or believer. But I think it is a bit of a different kind of faith.

Faith as defined in the Bible is: "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1, New International Version).

Also defined as "To believe without reason"

That is what makes it so confounding. If you could prove faith, it wouldn't be faith...

[maurice]

The Douche is Jesusobsessed.

Go run off to the Around the League board and complain that none of the threads are about the Sox.

:hello:

[Sir Realist]

I don't think it takes much faith at all to not believe. In fact, I think the whole point of not believing in a higher power shows the complete lack of faith in anything other than hard, scientific fact.

And considering how little evidence there actually is in a higher power (as in, mostly everything can be proven to exist due to science), it's pretty fucking easy not to believe.

Science is NOT the antithesis of God.

I swear the worst thing about this country being set up by a bunch a puritanical protestant nut jobs is this bizarre belief that somehow evolved amongst non-believers that if anything can be proven or theorized with science, it automatically helps disprove the existence of God.

Science is the exploration and study of God's beautiful creation and is never ever at odds with God. This what the first Christians believed and this is what Orthodox Christians still believe.

It's pretty fucking easy not to believe because we have egos and pride that tells us nothing can be more important or more in control than we ourselves are.

[maurice]

The existence of God is not even a scientific question.
:shrug:

[Unregistered]

It's pretty fucking easy not to believe because we have egos and pride that tells us nothing can be more important or more in control than we ourselves are.

That, and it's just simply MUCH more difficult (or impossible) to "prove" that a higher power exists. It's a lot easier to say "um, I don't SEE a high power, I don't see all the miracles that apparently happened all the time in biblical times and people every day are brutalized by their fellow man and are suffered indignities on a daily basis with not the slightest intervention from a higher power."

It takes a lot more faith (or ANY faith in general) to take all of that and turn it into "the Lord's plan for everyone" or whatever, and to believe in heaven and hell.

[CaptainBallz]

BTW, being an atheist and getting married is one of the stupidest things I can think of. Life is gonna be awfully short. If there's nothing after this show, I'll be damned if I'm gonna tie myself to one vagina the rest of my life. It's borderline retarded.

tax benefits.. :shrug:

I think your general definition of atheism is a bit off the mark. While there are atheists that will sit there and try to tell you that god does IN NO WAY exist, that isn't a necessity of atheism. Atheism can also be defined as the "absence of belief in deities." Under that definition, it doesn't take the arrogance that you talk of to be considered an atheist.
It simply means that one does not "believe", mainly because there is no reason to "believe". It's actually more humble than anything.

[Sir Realist]

The existence of God is not even a scientific question.
:shrug:

I know. It drives me batty when non-believers think they can "science away" God. The best science can do is to sometimes illuminate just how God did His little handy work with this Universe.

The whole 'God vs. Science' or 'Science vs. God' thingy is stupid and needs to end. I read up on God and Science about equally and I never feel a conflict between the two. Perhaps it's because the conflict simply doesn't exist.

[Unregistered]

Well, there's religion that tells you that man (Adam and Eve) was created by his hand, and the ribs and the snake, etc., and then there's science that speaks of evolution, the big bang theory, etc. which directly contradicts all of that.

Those two sides are pretty dissimilar. :shrug:

[Erik The Red]

There is no proof that God doesn't exist so it takes a ton of faith to be sure He doesn't.

I consider myself a person of faith, and being a person of faith, I often have strong doubts about what I believe in.

But there you are... completely sure that there is no God. I've gotta hand it to ya. You've got more faith than I do.

Atheists and Fundies: Two Pees in a Pod.

:jagoff:

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, but I guess I'll explain it again. Try to pay a little more attention this time, mmmkay?

No one can be absolutely sure about something that can't be proven. That's a given, and even you should understand that. So no, I'm not 100% sure that some higher power doesn't exist. But given the absolute 100% lack of evidence for ANY god (and begging the question by saying that the fact we are here is proof just doesn't cut it), I see no reason to assert that there is one.

CHRISTIANS are the ones making the assertion here. The burden of proof is NOT on atheists. To quote the great Bertand Russell:

There is, it is true, a Modernist form of theism, according to which God is not omnipotent, but is doing His best, in spite of great difficulties. This view, although it is new among Christians, is not new in the history of thought. It is, in fact, to be found in Plato. I do not think this view can be proved to be false. I think all that can be said is that there is no positive reason in its favour. Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

If there were tangible evidence for a god, the vast majority of atheists would concede said deity's existence. I know I would. However, the opposite is most certainly not true. Christians will almost ALL defend their beliefs to the grave, regardless of any evidence to the contrary. THAT, Realist, is the mark of someone who is operating on faith.

BTW, being an atheist and getting married is one of the stupidest things I can think of. Life is gonna be awfully short. If there's nothing after this show, I'll be damned if I'm gonna tie myself to one vagina the rest of my life. It's borderline retarded.

Given your level of self-delusion, I would fully expect it to be hard for you to understand.

[the fluffer]

BTW, being an atheist and getting married is one of the stupidest things I can think of. Life is gonna be awfully short. If there's nothing after this show, I'll be damned if I'm gonna tie myself to one vagina the rest of my life. It's borderline retarded.

In Erik's defense, while I completely disagree with his religious views, he and his fiance are, as you put it... two peas in a pod. They belong together.

[Sir Realist]

Well, there's religion that tells you that man (Adam and Eve) was created by his hand, and the ribs and the snake, etc., and then there's science that speaks of evolution, the big bang theory, etc. which directly contradicts all of that.

Those two sides are pretty dissimilar. :shrug:

I believe any religion that teaches there was literally a guy named Adam and literally a woman named Eve that actually talked to a 'snake' in a literal garden called Eden is completely full of shit. Try reading the biblical story of how the world was created as if it was a poem.

I belong to the oldest Christian Church on Earth and we believe in evolution. The Big Bang theory contradicts none of our beliefs.

Is "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" a true story? Probably not. But is it True. Most definitely.

In Erik's defense, while I completely disagree with his religious views, he and his fiance are, as you put it... two peas in a pod. They belong together.

For now...

Agreed. What we don't know about "science" can fill the fucking universe.

And now they're saying that 95% of the universe is made up of some sort of 'dark matter' that we don't know the first thing about, let alone where it is, yet it's all around us. What the fuck?? :confused:

[Unregistered]

But science is all about coming to conclusions based on things that can be proved. And (unless we see the actual fucking apocalypse) the existence of a higher power is something that can never be "proven," which is basically what Erik's quote mentioned.

[Doug Simpson]

Jesus Saves.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8/jesussaveslh4.jpg

[Palehose13]

It's a lovely story and all... but frankly this is the same thing that millions of atheists/agnostics would have done in the same situation. In fact, I would wager that a higher percentage of atheists/agnostics would have done something like this, knowing in advance that the family there included a homosexual couple. Furthermore, they would have been motivated not by their religion, but the fact that it's simply the right thing to do.

Not only that, but the sermon is ridden with subtly-worded hatred of homosexuals. Sure, there's a great story about the church coming to the aid of a gay couple (which is only as powerful as it is because of the history of bigotry that has been the hallmark of christianity), but he doesn't stop there. He has to color it by likening homosexuals to "drunks, hookers, cheats and lepers". Revolting.

Well, in the pastors defense, I'd say a lot of gays are drunks and hookers. :)



But then again so is the rest of Milwaukee. :shrug:

I don't think it takes much faith at all to not believe. In fact, I think the whole point of not believing in a higher power shows the complete lack of faith in anything other than hard evidence and scientific fact. And considering how little evidence there actually is that a higher power exists other than a bunch of handed-down stories, it's pretty fucking easy not to believe, IMO.

Faith is what is needed to believe that throughout all the hardship, indignity, poverty, murder, rape, etc. in the worls, that there is someone up there who actually gives a shit about what's going on down here.

:clap:

Science is NOT
Science is the exploration and study of God's beautiful creation and is never ever at odds with God.

Mmmmmmm...as a science teacher, this is definitely not the recognized definition of science. I will also say that my teaching and study of science is not motivated by disproving the existence of god.

The existence of God is not even a scientific question.
:shrug:
True

tax benefits.. :shrug:

I think your general definition of atheism is a bit off the mark. While there are atheists that will sit there and try to tell you that god does IN NO WAY exist, that isn't a necessity of atheism. Atheism can also be defined as the "absence of belief in deities." Under that definition, it doesn't take the arrogance that you talk of to be considered an atheist.
It simply means that one does not "believe", mainly because there is no reason to "believe". It's actually more humble than anything.

Thanks Cap'n. All atheists are not "extremists". The ones I know just want to go about living life and not have other people's beliefs imposed upon us.

I want scientific FACT. PROVE it that God exisists. I deal in FACTS that cannot be refuted, just like all scientific FACTS.

I'm thinking that you are being sarcastic, but if you aren't...

Read this (http://www.soxandthecity.net/forums/showpost.php?p=223693&postcount=110)

[SFS04]

From my experience, the atheists I know are pretty moral people, and they've also either been married, or single but not opposed to marriage in the future.

[Erik The Red]

I want scientific FACT. PROVE it that God exisists. I deal in FACTS that cannot be refuted, just like all scientific FACTS.

Your sarcasm is amusing, but you should know by now that scientific observations are not absolute fact. They are provisional. No scientific "fact" is ever considered irrefutable.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

That, and it's just simply MUCH more difficult (or impossible) to "prove" that a higher power exists. It's a lot easier to say "um, I don't SEE a high power, I don't see all the miracles that apparently happened all the time in biblical times and people every day are brutalized by their fellow man and are suffered indignities on a daily basis with not the slightest intervention from a higher power."

It takes a lot more faith (or ANY faith in general) to take all of that and turn it into "the Lord's plan for everyone" or whatever, and to believe in heaven and hell.

The analogy I like to use is that of the wind. Do you believe wind exists? Can you see the wind? No, you cannot. You can only see the effects of what the wind does. You can also feel the wind and you can measure it. The obvious difference is that it doesn't take faith to believe in wind.

An atheist friend of mind used to rationalize his lack of belief in the hereafer by asking the question: "Do you remember what it was like the day before you were born? There was nothing and that is what it is like after you die!" But I pondered the question and wondered what does memory have to do with it? Do I remember what it was like the day after I was born? Of coors, not!

All of that is to say that these are very deep questions indeed and no one shall really be convinced that their view is wrong. When faced with a compelling argument, we either refute it or are changed by it. I'm just grateful for the fact that we can discuss it in a civil manner, because there are some folks that are watching this thread who may come off of the fence one way or the other...

[SFS04]

All of that is to say that these are very deep questions indeed and no one shall really be convinced that their view is wrong. When faced with a compelling argument, we either refute it or are changed by it. I'm just grateful for the fact that we can discuss it in a civil manner, because there are some folks that are watching this thread who may come off of the fence one way or the other...

I've enjoyed reading this thread :shrug:

[Erik The Red]

The analogy I like to use is that of the wind. Do you believe wind exists? Can you see the wind? No, you cannot. You can only see the effects of what the wind does. You can also feel the wind and you can measure it. The obvious difference is that it doesn't take faith to believe in wind.

That's not really a good analogy, since we have known for some time now that wind is created by the earth's magnetic field.

[Sir Realist]

But science is all about coming to conclusions based on things that can be proved. And (unless we see the actual fucking apocalypse) the existence of a higher power is something that can never be "proven," which is basically what Erik's quote mentioned.

I think science is stupid to even begin to try to prove or disprove the existence of God, and I've never heard a scientist even claim they could. Science deals with the physical universe. God is beyond the physical universe.

[SFS04]

I was raised Catholic but I do not agree with the church on many social issues.

I would be down for joining a church that was really liberal with social issues (like gay marriage etc).

[Palehose13]

I was raised Catholic but I do not agree with the church on many social issues.

I would be down for joining a church that was really liberal with social issues (like gay marriage etc).


This church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism)may suit you. Many of the religious gays belong to it. If I believed in a higher power, this would probably be my church. :shrug:

[SFS04]

It would give me something to think about during the week, i figure, if I went to church. And I figure it might also make me feel more optimistic about life in general. :shrug:

Let's stumble into St. Alphonsus with hangovers.

:rock:

And thanks for the link, Val! I'm gonna read up on it.

[Unregistered]

Which would be nice considering you maintain that everyone and everything, in fact, sucks.

[SFS04]

I'm not :gene: :shrug:

[CaptainBallz]

It would give me something to think about during the week, i figure, if I went to church. And I figure it might also make me feel more optimistic about life in general. :shrug:



There's plenty of other ways to do that without swallowing gallons of some particular denomination's bull puckey.... :shrug:

[SFS04]

Just because I'm listening to something, doesn't mean I'm "swallowing gallons of bull puckey"

[Palehose13]

There's plenty of other ways to do that without swallowing gallons of some particular denomination's bull puckey.... :shrug:

I think pretty much all the time and am a pretty optimistic person. :shrug:

[SFS04]

For all I know, I'd go to church, listen, say that's a load of horseshit, walk out, and never go back again :shrug:

[Unregistered]

I hope KarinN gets born again. It would be a delicious treat!

[SFS04]

:rolling:

Don't hold your breath bub!

My cousins are born again and they don't drink. Therefor I could never be "born again"

[CaptainBallz]

Just because I'm listening to something, doesn't mean I'm "swallowing gallons of bull puckey"

I guess my point is, why would you need to go to a church to have something to think about and/or feel better about things.

[SFS04]

why not? :dunno:

[SFS04]

Like I said above, I wouldn't consider going to a church that didn't line up with my social leanings as it is. The one Val linked looks more like a philosophy/theology club than a church. I'd actually go to that.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

There's plenty of other ways to do that without swallowing gallons of some particular denomination's bull puckey.... :shrug:

I have never understood why some people think of churchgoers as thoughtless lemmings. Just because you may share a doctrine doesn't mean you are Stepford People. That would be akin to saying "Ballz posts on SATC, therefore he must be a drunken nerdslut"

[SFS04]

I would think a lot of people pick and choose which leanings of the Church best fall in line with their personal beliefs. Not every religion is super strict like that.

[Unregistered]

That would be akin to saying "Ballz posts on SATC, therefore he must be a drunken nerdslut"

Only nerds use the internet. Everyone knows that.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I would think a lot of people pick and choose which leanings of the Church best fall in line with their personal beliefs. Not every religion is super strict like that.

True that. Some churches are very legalistic, others very liberal.

[Palehose13]

why not? :dunno:

Because I can think of a ton of better things to do on a Sunday. ;)

[Erik The Red]

I have never understood why some people think of churchgoers as thoughtless lemmings. Just because you may share a doctrine doesn't mean you are Stepford People. That would be akin to saying "Ballz posts on SATC, therefore he must be a drunken nerdslut"

You saying he's not?

:thinking:

[CaptainBallz]

I have never understood why some people think of churchgoers as thoughtless lemmings.

No, I wasn't saying that. It just sounded like she was going to go to some church all willy-nilly and hope that she came out thinking about something and not feeling like a miserable smacktard. I just didn't see the point.

Now if you kinda know what you're looking for, as it's clear now that she is, I guess that would make sense.

but I'm just a drunken nerdslut, so these things confound me.

[SFS04]

I would be opposed to going to church if it interfered with watching Football, or boning.

No, I wasn't saying that. It just sounded like she was going to go to some church all willy-nilly and hope that she came out thinking about something and not feeling like a miserable smacktard. I just didn't see the point.

Now if you kinda know what you're looking for, as it's clear now that she is, I guess that would make sense.

but I'm just a drunken nerdslut, so these things confound me.

So we both think each other's a incompetent moron, how adorable :hello:

[CaptainBallz]

with catholicism, you get to bone and get your jesus on. If you have a penis...

[SFS04]

Go to church sat night, go get drunk afterwards, have some trippy discussion like "what's it all mean maaaaan" :rock:

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Catholic church is often Saturday evenings too, like 5pm. I always preferred that over Sunday mornings.

We have Saturday 6:00, Sunday 9:00 & 11:00 services. But now with the advent of podcasting and video streaming, you can have "church" whenever it fits your schedule, really...

No, I wasn't saying that. It just sounded like she was going to go to some church all willy-nilly and hope that she came out thinking about something and not feeling like a miserable smacktard. I just didn't see the point.

Now if you kinda know what you're looking for, as it's clear now that she is, I guess that would make sense.

but I'm just a drunken nerdslut, so these things confound me.

But you are the best doggone drunken nerdslut on here! :thumbsup:

[1951Campbell]

I think science is stupid to even begin to try to prove or disprove the existence of God, and I've never heard a scientist even claim they could. Science deals with the physical universe. God is beyond the physical universe.

Okay, forget science.

To accept as a first principle the existence of God in trying to answer the question of whether or not God exists is poor logic, and shuts down inquiry. Only a supernatural entity could be "beyond the physical universe." You're starting from the finish line. To get Euclidian here, you can't start with the Pythagorean Theorem and work backwards to common notions, definitions, and axioms.

At this point, the religious typically fall back on faith, as if a belief that is held very, very fervently can somehow make an end run around logic and basic rules of argument. Saying you really, really believe something is not in and of itself persuasive or descriptive.

Also telling is the fact that a not-so-thinly-veiled Pascal's Wager has popped up serveral times in this thread--always the last refuge of the religious scoundrel. ;)

[Palehose13]

Catholic church is often Saturday evenings too, like 5pm. I always preferred that over Sunday mornings.

When one has not been to a catholic church for a long time (or has never been before) and goes to one, say for a funeral or wedding, and there is mass...it sure looks cultish as hell. It's pretty scary, at least IMO.

[SFS04]

I'm not a fan of the Catholic Church.

[CaptainBallz]

So we both think each other's a incompetent moron, how adorable :hello:

Is that really what you took from that!? :confused:

And I'm a fully competent moran, thank you...

[SFS04]

she was going to go to some church all willy-nilly and hope that she came out thinking about something and not feeling like a miserable smacktard.

That's not exactly a compliment, now, is it?

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Okay, forget science.

To accept as a first principle the existence of God in trying to answer the question of whether or not God exists is poor logic, and shuts down inquiry. Only a supernatural entity could be "beyond the physical universe." You're starting from the finish line. To get Euclidian here, you can't start with the Pythagorean Theorem and work backwards to common notions, definitions, and axioms.

At this point, the religious typically fall back on faith, as if a belief that is held very, very fervently can somehow make an end run around logic and basic rules of argument. Saying you really, really believe something is not in and of itself persuasive or descriptive.

Also telling is the fact that a not-so-thinly-veiled Pascal's Wager has popped up serveral times in this thread--always the last refuge of the religious scoundrel. ;)

I just think that trying to have faith and logic exist in the same space is hopeless. Faith by its' very definition defies logic and reason. Trying to expound on faith in the context of logic is an exercise in futility.

[1951Campbell]

When one has not been to a catholic church for a long time (or has never been before) and goes to one, say for a funeral or wedding, and there is mass...it sure looks cultish as hell. It's pretty scary, at least IMO.

Any ritual, religious or otherwise, looks cultish to the uninitiated.

[CaptainBallz]

That's not exactly a compliment, now, is it?

Of course, I paraphrased a little....

[1951Campbell]

I just think that trying to have faith and logic exist in the same space is hopeless. Faith by its' very definition defies logic and reason. Trying to expound on faith in the context of logic is an exercise in futility.

Religion makes a claim to truth, but by its own rules, to wit: science, reason and logic shall not apply.

One can eschew science, reason and logic all they like, but when the truth talk starts, I have to be very skeptical, because religion seems to cast aside every traditional tool for getting to the truth while claiming to have gotten there.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I would not say science. I think science supports the Bible, but as Erik stated it is provisional and not absolute.

[Palehose13]

Any ritual, religious or otherwise, looks cultish to the uninitiated.

Absolutely. The thing that was most shocking to me though was that I was raised as a Catholic (Catholic grade school, etc.) and after being away from the church for about 15 years is was just so...wow. I found it hard to believe that grown people go through the ritual weekly and think that it is "normal" behavior. :shrug:

I would not say science. I think science supports the Bible, but as Erik stated it is provisional and not absolute.

:confused:

I'm sure this one is gonna blow me away.

[Erik The Red]

I think science supports the Bible

Anything can be made to support a book written in metaphors. Just sayin'.

[CaptainBallz]

For my niece's communion, I recently had to go back to the catholic church that I used to attend back in the day. At some point in the last few years, they included some bizarro new wave shit that I just didn't get. It was one of those "jesus songs" that some person just decided to write and everybody knew ALL the words and were singing along with their hands held out, palms up, in that psuedo-pious pose that people like to do when acting religious.
Is this common practice at catholic mass now. It seemed very evangelical... like teh garbage you see on TV when they're trying to sell that "Jesus' Greatest Hits" CD...

[the fluffer]

That's not really a good analogy, since we have known for some time now that wind is created by the earth's magnetic field.


Dale Earnhardt could see the air on plate tracks... he could SEE the draft. That makes him God-like.

[Palehose13]

Dale Earnhardt could see the air on plate tracks... he could SEE the draft. That makes him God-like.

Was there any doubt?

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Dale Earnhardt could see the air on plate tracks... he could SEE the draft. That makes him God-like.

Why do you think he is in Heaven now? God needed a good drafting partner!

I think there is an old joke about these race cars on the track in Heaven and so-and-so see's the #3 car and says "Oh, there's Dale Earnhardt"
and Peter says "No, that is just God pretending to be Dale Earnhardt"

[Sir Realist]

For my niece's communion, I recently had to go back to the catholic church that I used to attend back in the day. At some point in the last few years, they included some bizarro new wave shit that I just didn't get. It was one of those "jesus songs" that some person just decided to write and everybody knew ALL the words and were singing along with their hands held out, palms up, in that psuedo-pious pose that people like to do when acting religious.
Is this common practice at catholic mass now. It seemed very evangelical... like teh garbage you see on TV when they're trying to sell that "Jesus' Greatest Hits" CD...

Yeah, there's a bunch of that garbage still going on out there, but the Roman Catholic Church really is trying to get back to its liturgical roots and away from the silly "prayer barn" nonsense.

[GaelicSoxFan]

Why do you think he is in Heaven now? God needed a good drafting partner!

I think there is an old joke about these race cars on the track in Heaven and so-and-so see's the #3 car and says "Oh, there's Dale Earnhardt"
and Peter says "No, that is just God pretending to be Dale Earnhardt"From what I've heard about Dale, he wouldn't share the draft with anyone. He'd always expect drafting help though.

Yeah, there's a bunch of that garbage still going on out there, but the Roman Catholic Church really is trying to get back to its liturgical roots and away from the silly "prayer barn" nonsense.I'd like to see my Church get back to the preaching the Good News and get away from telling people how to run their lives.

[Prope]

I think science is stupid to even begin to try to prove or disprove the existence of God, and I've never heard a scientist even claim they could. Science deals with the physical universe. God is beyond the physical universe.
Homer Simpson one time disproved the existence of God while working on a flat-tax proposal.

[CaptainBallz]

NO REFERENCES!

http://www.soxandthecity.net/forums/showpost.php?p=223575&postcount=25

[Sir Realist]

I'd like to see my Church get back to the preaching the Good News and get away from telling people how to run their lives.

We've got plenty of room for more. :)

I wouldn't last 2 seconds in a church where there were men and women trying to tell my how to run my life. I'm way too much of a rebellious punk.

[SFS04]

What's your church's story, Realist?

[Pick a name, Buddy]

From what I've heard about Dale, he wouldn't share the draft with anyone. He'd always expect drafting help though.



Actually, that is pert close to the truth. I once heard him quoted as saying he trusted only 2 drivers in the draft: Sterling Marlin and Jimmy Spencer. From 1991 to about 1997, Dale and Sterling were often seen drafting together at the big plate tracks...

[maurice]

Well, there's religion that tells you that man (Adam and Eve) was created by his hand, and the ribs and the snake, etc., and then there's science that speaks of evolution, the big bang theory, etc. which directly contradicts all of that.

Science doesn't need to contradict the Adam and Eve story, because the Bible contradicts itself on this point. Anybody who believes the Adam and Eve story because they think that everything in the Bible is literally true is an immense idiot. Sorry, Carl Everett.

Human evolution is a scientific question, but the general existence of God is not. Science only deals with things that are capable of being empirically disproved. Metaphysical stuff (and literature and fine arts, etc.) does not apply.

My cousins are born again and they don't drink. Therefor I could never be "born again"

That never made any sense to me. Jesus is all about getting hammered. One time, he went to this wedding and there was no booze, so Jesus was all like, "This is totally weak." Then he used his superpowers to turn water into wine, and everybody had a great time. Then, this other time, he was drinking with his buddies, and he was all like, "Broheim, I'm cutting out of here pretty soon, but this Jesusabout was awesome, so do this in memory of me." Then he chugged a whole goblet of wine.

:rock:

The morale of the story is that fundies are retarded.

religion seems to cast aside every traditional tool for getting to the truth

Not really. Religion IS the "traditional tool," along with reading chicken bones and entrails and stuff like that. Science and logic are the innovative superior methods.

[Sir Realist]

What's your church's story, Realist?

This (http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/Orthodox_Church/origin.shtml) should get you started.

[StockdaleforVeep]

My god is an awesome god

[the fluffer]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc253/djfmjc/119260721155.jpg

[Sir Realist]

Science doesn't need to contradict the Adam and Eve story, because the Bible contradicts itself on this point. Anybody who believes the Adam and Eve story because they think that everything in the Bible is literally true is an immense idiot. Sorry, Carl Everett.

Human evolution is a scientific question, but the general existence of God is not. Science only deals with things that are capable of being empirically disproved. Metaphysical stuff (and literature and fine arts, etc.) does not apply.



That never made any sense to me. Jesus is all about getting hammered. One time, he went to this wedding and there was no booze, so Jesus was all like, "This is totally weak." Then he used his superpowers to turn water into wine, and everybody had a great time. Then, this other time, he was drinking with his buddies, and he was all like, "Broheim, I'm cutting out of here pretty soon, but this Jesusabout was awesome, so do this in memory of me." Then he chugged a whole goblet of wine.

:rock:

The morale of the story is that fundies are retarded.



Not really. Religion IS the "traditional tool," along with reading chicken bones and entrails and stuff like that. Science and logic are the innovative superior methods.

I can't tell ya how much I appreciate this entire post. However, I don't think he bogarted the whole goblet of wine that nite. I'm pretty sure he shared it with the whole crew. Jesus is pretty cool about the whole sharing thing.

[the fluffer]

From what I've heard about Dale, he wouldn't share the draft with anyone. He'd always expect drafting help though.

Yes, and every driver on the track who has a clue got behind him because they knew where they'd end up if they did, the front. I watched him in 2000 at 'Dega go from 21st to first in the last 4 laps SIDE drafting... pulling draft off of the sides of cars... did it by himself... no drafting help. It was insane... and was also his last win before his untimely death.

EDIT: here it is... watch the pass for the lead coming out of four... pulling draft off of the side of Skinner.
JoyT4QOqjT0

[LuvSox]

Step 3---Prophet!

[Pick a name, Buddy]

As promised back in post #77, here is the link to the sermon I was speaking of. It is lesson 4. I don't think the video will be up until tomorrow.

Cheers!

Linkture (http://letteredition.com/media.aspx)

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Video is now up at the same link for anyone interested...

[Sir Realist]

Can you describe accurately what love is in real physical terms? Or can you only appeal to experiential and anecdotal tools and know that they all fall short of what you really know?

[StockdaleforVeep]

each man is a good, each man is free

Can you describe accurately what love is in real physical terms? Or can you only appeal to experiential and anecdotal tools and know that they all fall short of what you really know?

ask jeans, he's apparently the ph.d of love and relationships on the satch

[Erik The Red]

Can you describe accurately what love is in real physical terms? Or can you only appeal to experiential and anecdotal tools and know that they all fall short of what you really know?

Are you actually equating a human emotion like love, something with actual biological evidence behind it (increased levels of dopamine for one), with the supernatural?

:rolling:

It's amazing what people will do to rationalize irrational beliefs.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

What is it with people like you that insist on insulting other peoples' beliefs because they don't understand them? It is so rude and condescending. And you call us self-righteous?

Does it come from a need to appear smarter than a "believer"? or more "independent"? or what??

[Palehose13]

What is it with people like you that insist on insulting other peoples' beliefs because they don't understand them? It is so rude and condescending. And you call us self-righteous?

Does it come from a need to appear smarter than a "believer"? or more "independent"? or what??

For me it is usually in response to a "believer" making some sort of snide comment to me. I have been perfectly able to talk religion, faith, and god quite respectfully with many who are spiritual people (online or in person). I personally don't care what an individual chooses to believe, but I get irritated when a believer "takes pity on me" or tries to "prove" something faith-based through science. To me, the latter is an insult to my field of study.

I don't think you and I have ever gotten into it about religion, Fuller. However, I have with other people and for the reasons above.. :shrug:

As for this thread, I am a little disappointed that non-believers came in and started stuff.

[Palehose13]

People who simplify "love" in terms of chemicals are probably incapable of having faith. :shrug:

:confused:

C'mon now CB, I'm sure you know what he means.

And in regards to faith, I have a lot of it, but it is stuff that I see as tangible.

[SFS04]

For me it is usually in response to a "believer" making some sort of snide comment to me. I have been perfectly able to talk religion, faith, and god quite respectfully with many who are spiritual people (online or in person). I personally don't care what an individual chooses to believe, but I get irritated when a believer "takes pity on me" or tries to "prove" something faith-based through science. To me, the latter is an insult to my field of study.


As for this thread, I am a little disappointed that non-believers came in and started stuff.

I get really bothered when religious people do this to non-religious people. I dunno, I know a main point of churches often is to convert people but I can't get behind that.

I too am kind of disappointed, Val. I think the few posters that we have here that are very religious (fuller, realist, chips, etc.) are very respectful of others who don't share their beliefs.

People who simplify "love" in terms of chemicals are probably incapable of having faith. :shrug:

:highfive: You put it better than i could.

[Unregistered]

I think the few posters that we have here that are very religious (fuller, realist, chips, etc.) are very respectful of others who don't share their beliefs.


:rolling:

[CaptainBallz]

there is nothing more condescending than having somebody say that they're going to "pray" for you because they disagree with you...

People who simplify "love" in terms of chemicals are probably incapable of having faith. :shrug:

well, in all honesty, that is what's going on there... "divine" causes or not

[Palehose13]

there is nothing more condescending than having somebody say that they're going to "pray" for you because they disagree with you...

Yep.

Karin, I disagree with your list of respectful posters.

[SFS04]

:rolling:

Wait, you know Chips is really into the whole Catholic thing right? The kid can quote the bible like no one's business and does so regularly.

And yeah he's pretty much the most disrespectful person ever but he doesn't push Catholicism on anyone :laff:

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I would like to add something here. I think the issue with Erik may be more to the point that is kind of his personality. I don't mean that in a mean spirited way. What I am trying to say is that it says more about his posting style than the topic at hand. Perhaps.

[SFS04]

Yep.

Karin, I disagree with your list of respectful posters.

:laff: Val see I clarified what i meant about Chips.

I haven't really noticed Fuller or Realist criticizing people for not being religious here unless i missed something. THAT's what I meant by "respect" in this context. Hope that helps express my point!

[Unregistered]

Wait, you know Chips is really into the whole Catholic thing right? The kid can quote the bible like no one's business and does so regularly.


Chips can also rattle off the phone numbers of most of the people on this board.

It doesn't make him a phonebook. :hangloose:

[SFS04]

Chips can also rattle off the phone numbers of most of the people on this board.

It doesn't make him a phonebook. :hangloose:

I'm pretty sure he digs the Jesus thang :thumbsup: Although I don't think he's like some active churchgoer or what have you.

[Dan Mega]

there is nothing more condescending than having somebody say that they're going to "pray" for you because they disagree with you...

Or calling you a close minded idiot because you believe in God.

[CaptainBallz]

Dopamine and endorphins are the biological root of all things pleasurable as far as I know, but there's more to interpersonal psychological relations than that. The human mind is practically supernatural itself.

Well, I won't go that far.
I will admit there's definitely more to its capacity than we have yet to discover, possibly even fathom.
But even the psychological interplay between people is the direct result of chemical activity happening in people's respective brains. Of course, it's not a self-contained apparatus that isn't affected by outside stimuli. But as far as the experience of "love" (however that would be defined), it can only be attributed to chemical activity as opposed to something "supernatural". It's all too natural, IMO...

Or calling you a close minded idiot because you believe in God.

Eh, i think the other one is more condescending...
It's basically telling some person that you're going to use your super-awesome connection with high, mighty spirits to "fix" somebody... That's pretty bird-worthy...

[Dan Mega]

Eh, i think the other one is more condescending...
It's basically telling some person that you're going to use your super-awesome connection with high, mighty spirits to "fix" somebody... That's pretty bird-worthy...

Or you could look at it as someone who is truely cared about your "soul" if you will, therefore they want what they feel is better for you. Now if someone was to come out and say "I'll pray for you to be as good as I am", then yes that is condescending.

There is nothing more condescending, self-righteous, and pompous than someone flat out insulting you, your intelligence, and your beliefs just for the mere fact that you believe differently than them.

[maurice]

I understand that most find it very annoying, but I personally don't mind when people try to convert folks one way or another. These types usually are religion noobs who are very likely to get pwned.

OTOH, it becomes a problem when the government does it.

[weebs1818]

Or you could look at it as someone who is truely cared about your "soul" if you will, therefore they want what they feel is better for you. Now if someone was to come out and say "I'll pray for you to be as good as I am", then yes that is condescending.

There is nothing more condescending, self-righteous, and pompous than someone flat out insulting you, your intelligence, and your beliefs just for the mere fact that you believe differently than them.
I grew up with people telling me they were praying for me all the time. Friends at school, kids I was babysitting for, the receptionist at the doctor's office, neighbors, etc. My parents handled it so graciously when it happened to them that I followed their lead and listened to what the people had to say and thanked them for thinking of me. Then I told them I was happy with who I was and did not intend to change.

Looking back, I don't know if that is a lame way to respond, becuase it really did get irritating.

[SFS04]

I grew up with people telling me they were praying for me all the time. Friends at school, kids I was babysitting for, the receptionist at the doctor's office, neighbors, etc. My parents handled it so graciously when it happened to them that I followed their lead and listened to what the people had to say and thanked them for thinking of me. Then I told them I was happy with who I was and did not intend to change.

Looking back, I don't know if that is a lame way to respond, becuase it really did get irritating.

I agree it's annoying to be told "i'm praying for you" but i think you handled that well.

Ah, the South.....

[CaptainBallz]

Or you could look at it as someone who is truely cared about your "soul" if you will, therefore they want what they feel is better for you. Now if someone was to come out and say "I'll pray for you to be as good as I am", then yes that is condescending.

Still pretty condescending. But anyway...

There is nothing more condescending, self-righteous, and pompous than someone flat out insulting you, your intelligence, and your beliefs just for the mere fact that you believe differently than them.

I'll agree with that. That's shitty in any situation.
I try to be as respectful as possible about people's beliefs. I understand that everyone has them and to each his/her own. But when a conversation about why people believe what they believe erupts and one set relies on a "just because" argument, it's only natural to be a bit dismissive of their POV. I would say people should be respectful when dismissing someone's opinion, but it's still a dismissal... It's going seem condescending no matter what.

[weebs1818]

Gotta love it!

[Palehose13]

I believe in the Jesus.

But Jesus wasn't a selfish capitalist... :)

[Dan Mega]

I believe in the Jesus.

:ditto:

[CaptainBallz]

Game. Set. Match. PH13!!!

How do you explain the phenomenon of night terrors then?

AHH! COBRAS!

Those are cause by gnomes with remote controlled electro-pulsar cannons

[maurice]

Jesus is just all right with me.
Jesus is just alright, oh yeah.

Looking back, I don't know if that is a lame way to respond, because it really did get irritating.

IMO that's an excellent way to respond.

[weebs1818]

Thanks, Maurice. Luckily, I have not had to bust it out in ages..

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I agree it's annoying to be told "i'm praying for you" but i think you handled that well.

Ah, the South.....

I think it is inappropriate to tell someone that you are praying for them to convert. Because A) are you really praying or just saying that as a dig and B) if you are truly praying for a person to find the Lord, that should be between you and God.

OTOH, if a person is hurting, fearful, grieving or the like, I find it to be okay to say "I will be in prayer about that"

It is intended to be comforting, but is that annoying or wrong?

[SFS04]

I think it is inappropriate to tell someone that you are praying for them to convert. Because A) are you really praying or just saying that as a dig and B) if you are truly praying for a person to find the Lord, that should be between you and God.

OTOH, if a person is hurting, fearful, grieving or the like, I find it to be okay to say "I will be in prayer about that"

It is intended to be comforting, but is that annoying or wrong?

I think some people do find it annoying, actually--those who are outright atheists and non-religious. Of course not ALL those people in those groups do but I do know it frustrates some people.

I figure the least confrontational way to put it is "you'll be in my thoughts".

[CaptainBallz]

I think it is inappropriate to tell someone that you are praying for them to convert. Because A) are you really praying or just saying that as a dig and B) if you are truly praying for a person to find the Lord, that should be between you and God.

OTOH, if a person is hurting, fearful, grieving or the like, I find it to be okay to say "I will be in prayer about that"

It is intended to be comforting, but is that annoying or wrong?

That's just being thoughtful.

The former context is trying to be a polesmoke.

[Palehose13]

OTOH, if a person is hurting, fearful, grieving or the like, I find it to be okay to say "I will be in prayer about that"

It is intended to be comforting, but is that annoying or wrong?

I don't think it is wrong. You are being polite and just trying to comfort in the way you know how. I don't take offense to it. I just say thank you. :shrug:

**edit: Also Fuller, you never struck me as a guy who pushes religion on people.

I figure the least confrontational way to put it is "you'll be in my thoughts".

That is what I say to people.

Everyone's saying "Gabbo this" and "Gabbo that," when they should be saying "worship this" and "Jericho that."

Your avatar makes the SATCH almost unreadable in my current environment.

:granny:

[Sir Realist]

Are you actually equating a human emotion like love, something with actual biological evidence behind it (increased levels of dopamine for one), with the supernatural?

:rolling:

It's amazing what people will do to rationalize irrational beliefs.

Are you seriously getting married?? That's a joke, right? :confused:

[SFS04]

Are you seriously getting married?? That's a joke, right? :confused:

Tax benefits, bro. :rock:

[Sir Realist]

I agree it's annoying to be told "i'm praying for you" but i think you handled that well.

Ah, the South.....

I never understood why someone would tell someone else "I'll pray for you" if it's unsolicited. What's the point? I pray for lots of people, living and dead, but I don't see any point in telling the living people I pray for that I prayed for them. That's between me and Adonais.

How about this: if someone is praying for you, just take it with a grain of salt and brush it off because it's in the best of intentions. Jesus fucking Christ.

When Jehovah's Witnesses or Reformed Christians tell me they're gonna pray for me, it's because they believe I'm going to go to hell for my religious beliefs. They're intentions are prideful and an attempt to guilt me into following what they incorrectly perceive to be the correct path. I don't think an initial reaction of "well fuck you too" after being told someone is going to pray for you is all that out of line.

[SFS04]

How about this: if someone is praying for you, just take it with a grain of salt and brush it off because it's in the best of intentions. Jesus fucking Christ.

Because some things just irk people.

I mean, I like religious people alright (ahem, CB) but it's just a turn of phrase that I'm not wild about.

[maurice]

What really bothers me is people APPROACHING ME ON THE FUCKING STREET or coming to my door, for any reason. It's not their reason that bothers me, it can be anything from praying for my hellbound soul or selling a candy bar, just do...not...talk to me.

I agree, but I have a special exception for hot girls.

[Sir Realist]

There isn't much evangelizing in the Orthodox Church. One Roman Catholic friend of mine said I belong to a closed club that isn't too keen on letting outsiders in on their big secret. I love this quote by a different and Orthodox friend of mine:

Remember, our Orthodox mindset is very “unevangelical”. If someone comes to our liturgies, asks questions and then decides that Orthodoxy isn’t for him/her, we don’t react much at all except maybe to offer another cup of coffee and a piece of baklava.

[SFS04]

Oh God, this cute guy approached me at a bus stop back in March and I was like, aaaaand how can I help you? and then he started talking and I was like ruh roh we've got a JW on our hands here. And he kept trying to get me to go to some event on APril 2nd where God would save us or something and I knew that date was really familiar. I didn't realize till I got on the bus that I was going to my own Church Celebration that day at 35th and Shields :rock:

Needless to say as soon as he opened his mouth the appeal flew way out the window! :laff:

[Erik The Red]

People who simplify "love" in terms of chemicals are probably incapable of having faith. :shrug:

People who don't have basic reading comprehension skills are probably incapable of understanding what they read. :shrug:

I would like to add something here. I think the issue with Erik may be more to the point that is kind of his personality. I don't mean that in a mean spirited way. What I am trying to say is that it says more about his posting style than the topic at hand. Perhaps.

The only person to which I've responded in a disrespectful manner is the one person who has gone out of their way to be a douchebag about non-belief. Even though I've had disagreements with you, I at least elucidate them in reasonable terms and don't insult you personally.

As for this thread, I am a little disappointed that The Dude came in and started stuff.

Fixed that for ya.

[Unregistered]

Needless to say as soon as he opened his mouth the appeal flew way out the window! :laff:

Halitosis is no laughing matter.

[Palehose13]

People who don't have basic reading comprehension skills are probably incapable of understanding what they read. :shrug:



The only person to which I've responded in a disrespectful manner is the one person who has gone out of their way to be a douchebag about non-belief. Even though I've had disagreements with you, I at least elucidate them in reasonable terms and don't insult you personally.



Fixed that for ya.

Thanks. Perhaps a split in thread would be good? One keeping the original context and the other a debate?

[Pick a name, Buddy]

The only person to which I've responded in a disrespectful manner is the one person who has gone out of their way to be a douchebag about non-belief. Even though I've had disagreements with you, I at least elucidate them in reasonable terms and don't insult you personally.




Fair enough, Erik. Bygones ;)

[Erik The Red]

Fair enough, Erik. Bygones ;)

:nod:

[Sir Realist]

"Atheism, true 'existential' atheism, burning with hatred of a seemingly unjust or unmerciful God is a spiritual state; it is a real attempt to grapple with the true God Whose ways are so inexplicable even to the most believing of men, and it has more than once been known to end in a blinding vision of Him Whom the real atheist truly seeks. It is Christ Who works in these souls. The Antichrist is not to be found in the deniers, but in the small affirmers, whose Christ is only on the lips. Nietzsche, in calling himself Antichrist, proved thereby his intense hunger for Christ..."

-- Father Seraphim Rose

The good Father puts forth a pretty good argument for how many atheists can still have Christ working in their souls while the true Antichrist is actually in the "small affirmers whose Christ is only on the lips."

Figure the "Religious Right" equals "small affirmers" and you see how screwed up this world is.

The good news: a passionate atheist with a heart for the Truth has a better chance of entering a state of heaven than the bible thumping fire and brimstone hate filled Republican does according to this well respected Orthodox father and writer (http://www.myspace.com/fatherseraphimrose).

You just gotta love the hat.
http://b0.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00550/07/52/550832570_m.jpg

[Erik The Red]

Atheism, true 'existential' atheism, burning with hatred of a seemingly unjust or unmerciful God is a spiritual state;

How can one hate something that they don't believe exists? :confused:

[Pick a name, Buddy]

You're never gonna do it without The Fez on....

[Palehose13]

How can one hate something that they don't believe exists? :confused:

I agree. I enjoy debating the existance of a higher power (and did Friday night with some friends), but that could be that I just enjoy debating. :dunno:

[Sir Realist]

How can one hate something that they don't believe exists? :confused:

Ya got me. But obviously it happens all the time. Just start a thread a with the word "Jesus" in it, and the atheists come out of the woodwork to get their hate on. I've seen it happen here every time religion is brought up.

[Erik The Red]

Ya got me. But obviously it happens all the time. Just start a thread a with the word "Jesus" in it, and The Dude comes out of the woodwork to get their hate on. I've seen it happen here every time religion is brought up.

Fixed that for you.

[Palehose13]

Ya got me. But obviously it happens all the time. Just start a thread a with the word "Jesus" in it, and the atheists come out of the woodwork to get their hate on. I've seen it happen here every time religion is brought up.

:rolleyes:

I never said I hated Jesus. Hell, I believe the guy actually existed, but I believe that he was just a man. A very persuasive man.

[Pick a name, Buddy]

The fascinating thing about Jesus is that you have to pretty much evaluate Him on who He claimed to be. And if you do, He is either the Son of God or a complete lunatic.

[Timmy D's]

You're never gonna do it without The Fez on....

Nooooo Noooooo

Love me some Steely

[StockdaleforVeep]

Jesus was the alien from xfiles and had powers

[Palehose13]

The fascinating thing about Jesus is that you have to pretty much evaluate Him on who He claimed to be. And if you do, He is either the Son of God or a complete lunatic.

True, if he actually claimed it or if the people who wrote about him claimed it. Who knows? How do the Jews view Jesus? Prophet or something else?

Jesus was the alien from xfiles and had powers

Hmmmmmm...

[Pick a name, Buddy]

That is a good question Val. Maybe Reba or Jeans can weigh in on that...

[Unregistered]

Rabbi Geoffrey W. Dennis wrote in 2000:

"...What do Jews believe about Jesus?
That Jesus is not God or the "only begotten son" of God. Jesus was a child of God, just as we are all children of God.
Jesus lived in the land of Israel in the 1st Century.

He was a charismatic teacher and leader and developed a group of devoted followers. After Jesus was killed by the Romans, his followers continued to believe he was special and from them Christianity developed its own beliefs and practices that are different from Judaism...."

[StockdaleforVeep]

True, if he actually claimed it or if the people who wrote about him claimed it. Who knows? How do the Jews view Jesus? Prophet or something else?



Hmmmmmm...

Jews view Jesus as a prophet, the same as Muslims, the only diff is they dont believe Jesus Christ was\is the messiah\son of God

Jews dont believe he followed the messiac predictions set forth in the bible

[Unregistered]

Jews don't view Jesus as a prophet. They view him as a teacher/rabbi (like all other teachers or rabbis in that era) that taught some things that disagreed with the Torah, and because of this, Jews do not think that Jesus is important to the history of Judaism – which is why he's not a key figure in the religion.


"Jesus taught that he could forgive all sins; Jews believe that only God can forgive sins, and even then only after you have asked forgiveness from the person you have sinned against.

Jesus taught that we should turn the other cheek against evil - in other words, we should not respond. The Torah teaches us to fight against evil.

Jesus taught that the only way to pray to God was to pray through Jesus. Jews believe that anyone can pray to God directly....."

- Rabbi David J.B. Krishef

[Pick a name, Buddy]

Matt, were you raised in a fairly religious environment?

[Palehose13]

Jews don't view Jesus as a prophet. They view him as a teacher/rabbi (like all other teachers or rabbis in that era) that taught some things that disagreed with the Torah, and because of this, Jews do not think that Jesus is important to the history of Judaism – which is why he's not a key figure in the religion.


"Jesus taught that he could forgive all sins; Jews believe that only God can forgive sins, and even then only after you have asked forgiveness from the person you have sinned against.

Jesus taught that we should turn the other cheek against evil - in other words, we should not respond. The Torah teaches us to fight against evil.

Jesus taught that the only way to pray to God was to pray through Jesus. Jews believe that anyone can pray to God directly....."

- Rabbi David J.B. Krishef

Interesting. So Jesus was a bit of an overzealous teacher/rabbi?

[Unregistered]

Matt, were you raised in a fairly religious environment?


No, actually I was raised Christian and Jewish (both reformed, not too religious) – my parents divorced when I was young and my mom is Jewish and dad is Christian. So I celebrated Christmas, Hannukah, Easter and Passover. Because I lived with my mom I'd say it was like 60/40 in favor of Judaism, but I went to church plenty growing up.

Most people just consider me Jewish because for some reason it's got this public view of totalitarianism, in that if you practice or celebrate any Jewish holidays or customs that you're 100% Jewish, but I do consider myself both because I was brought up with both ideas, AND I'm a Libra, so of course I can see both points of view. :D

<roll credits>


Interesting. So Jesus was a bit of an overzealous teacher/rabbi?

:yup: That's how he's viewed in the Jewish religion. He's acknownledged as having existed, but that's where the story ends.

[Sir Realist]

No, actually I was raised Christian and Jewish (both reformed, not too religious) – my parents divorced when I was young and my mom is Jewish and dad is Christian. So I celebrated Christmas, Hannukah, Easter and Passover. Because I lived with my mom I'd say it was like 60/40 in favor of Judaism, but I went to church plenty growing up.

Most people just consider me Jewish because for some reason it's got this public view of totalitarianism, in that if you practice or celebrate any Jewish holidays or customs that you're 100% Jewish, but I do consider myself both because I was brought up with both ideas, AND I'm a Libra, so of course I can see both points of view. :D

<roll credits>






:yup: That's how he's viewed in the Jewish religion.

If yo mama be Jewish, you be Jewish. Dats da facts.

[Unregistered]

If yo mama be Jewish, you be Jewish. Dats da facts.

That's what the Jews'll tell ya. :D

It's just like that David Cross bit where as a teenager he tells a Rabbi that he's an Atheist and doesn't believe in anything the bible teaches:

"Well let me ask you this...is your mother's vagina Jewish?"

"uh, yeah.."

"Then you're a Jew. Thank you, move along. We might need you later."

[JohnBasedowYoda]

WSWJP

What smilie would Jesus post?

[Erik The Red]

That's what the Jews'll tell ya. :D

It's just like that David Cross bit where as a teenager he tells a Rabbi that he's an Atheist and doesn't believe in anything the bible teaches:

"Well let me ask you this...is your mother's vagina Jewish?"

"uh, yeah.."

"Then you're a Jew. Thank you, move along. We might need you later."

"Damn, got me on a technicality..."

[SFS04]

My cousins are half jewish and half catholic. They both decided to become adults in the jewish faith. So in other words I can see Jeans' point.

[CaptainBallz]

Also, keep in mind that christianity wasn't immediately concidered it's own religion. It was actually concidered a sect of Judaism for about 100 years after JC.

[JohnBasedowYoda]

UqXHbPeJciI

[Dan Mega]

Marriage is for the sucks.

[SFS04]

Marriage is for the sucks.

It's 4 the tax breaks!

[ewokpelts]

Jews don't view Jesus as a prophet. They view him as a teacher/rabbi (like all other teachers or rabbis in that era) that taught some things that disagreed with the Torah, and because of this, Jews do not think that Jesus is important to the history of Judaism – which is why he's not a key figure in the religion.


"Jesus taught that he could forgive all sins; Jews believe that only God can forgive sins, and even then only after you have asked forgiveness from the person you have sinned against.

Jesus taught that we should turn the other cheek against evil - in other words, we should not respond. The Torah teaches us to fight against evil.

Jesus taught that the only way to pray to God was to pray through Jesus. Jews believe that anyone can pray to God directly....."

- Rabbi David J.B. Krishef
hey rabbi, um...i'm catholic...jesus IS god. so suck it.

Marriage is for the sucks.

It's 4 the tax breaks!

and that's why the republicans dont want polesmokers and muff divers to get married.

[SFS04]

and that's why the republicans dont want polesmokers and muff divers to get married.

Abolish all legal marriage I say!!!

Tax our balls!!

Would Jesus approve?

[ewokpelts]

Abolish all legal marriage I say!!!

Tax our balls!!

Would Jesus approve?jesus was kinda a commie. so maybe

[Palehose13]

jesus was kinda a commie. so maybe

He was at least a socialist.

[SFS04]

I don't really see much of a reason for legal marriage anyways. Just give everyone the same fucking benefits regardless of gender and call it a civil union. Leave marriage to the church.

[Palehose13]

I don't really see much of a reason for legal marriage anyways. Just give everyone the same fucking benefits regardless of gender and call it a civil union. Leave marriage to the church.

Agreed.

Stuff like this is really hitting home today. Notice that my school is mentioned.

Board to consider MPS Domestic Partner Benefits tonight (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=688185)

[SFS04]

Val are you and your girlfriend officially in a civil union or something like that? Is it even allowed in Milwaukee?

[Palehose13]

Val are you and your girlfriend officially in a civil union or something like that? Is it even allowed in Milwaukee?

No. Wisconsin voted against recognizing or allowing same sex unions, or any domestic partnership (including heterosexual couples) in 2004. We have talked about going to Canada or a European country to get married, but frankly we don't have the money for it. We have also talked about having a commitment ceremony, but I don't want to do anythign like that unless I walk away with a paper. I suppose we could move to a state that allows it, but we both like it here. :shrug:

[SFS04]

If heteros could be domestic partners and not married I'd be way more interested in that than wearing some frou frou white dress and throwing an expensive ass party. :rock:

[Palehose13]

If heteros could be domestic partners and not married I'd be way more interested in that than wearing some frou frou white dress and throwing an expensive ass party. :rock:

You can always just get married at the courthouse and forget all that stuff. I have two hetero friends that have done that. :shrug:

[SFS04]

You can always just get married at the courthouse and forget all that stuff. I have two hetero friends that have done that. :shrug:

I went to a courthouse wedding earlier this summer, it lasted about 30 seconds. Other people getting married that day didn't even bother to dress up. One dude had his undershirt and jeans and that's all.

That's still a little too "wedding" for my tastes. I'd just want to sign a paper and have it filed and call it a day.

[Palehose13]

I went to a courthouse wedding earlier this summer, it lasted about 30 seconds. Other people getting married that day didn't even bother to dress up. One dude had his undershirt and jeans and that's all.

That's still a little too "wedding" for my tastes. I'd just want to sign a paper and have it filed and call it a day.

:laff:

There once was "common law marriage" but I don't think that is applicable in many states anymore.

Perhaps the mods can split and make us a marriage/civil union thread?

[ewokpelts]

You can always just get married at the courthouse and forget all that stuff. I have two hetero friends that have done that. :shrug:when i weent and got my marriage liscense, there were quite a few peeps trhat did just that. oddly enough, the brides were all italian hotties. as in "FROM italy" not, "EYE-TALIAN americans"

:laff:

There once was "common law marriage" but I don't think that is applicable in many states anymore.

Perhaps the mods can split and make us a marriage/civil union thread?whyt split it up? marriaage and jesus won teh second bush term.

as for common law marriages, they still exist, but you'r ebette roff getting hitched, cuz when you "divorce" a common law marriage, it's NSATY to divvty up the good/cash

If heteros could be domestic partners and not married I'd be way more interested in that than wearing some frou frou white dress and throwing an expensive ass party. :rock:most employer snow offer domestic partner benefits,even for "breeders". you just gotta have a shitload of paperwork.

[Palehose13]

most employer snow offer domestic partner benefits,even for "breeders". you just gotta have a shitload of paperwork.

Yeah, except mine. :shrug:

[ewokpelts]

Yeah, except mine. :shrug:you live in hicks ville. where red is a state of mind

[Palehose13]

you live in hicks ville. where red is a state of mind

:confused:

Wisconsin has been blue the last few elections. :shrug: