Pretty Typical Article by Bova

[fquaye14ten]

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=3314

[1951Campbell]

Beautiful. How the fuck did we survive that guy? How did we make the playoffs with that guy?

There was a pretty long puff piece about Manuel in the New York Times a few weeks ago. It was amazing. It mentioned, with approval, how Manuel re-reads his Gandhi every year, and talked about how serene and meditative he is. Totaly glossed over his disasters with the Sox. It was like his tenure with the Sox never happened.

Oh, and at the end there was some line about how when a manager gets canned, his phone doesn't exactly ring.

It was a weird article.

[Hangar18]

Im sorry. Who wrote that again? Bova Kiley? I remember a few people making posts exactly like that already .............. and being mocked.
I like the article, but to me it was written already, about 3 yrs ago .........by everyone else,
myself included

[Hangar18]

best part?
September of 05 wasn't a great month. The Fans were howling and we all said wow the SOX suck. You were branded a Dark Cloud and banned. Ozzie said the SOX sucked. He's branded a hero. GREAT

Sorry ......... im not buying.

[fquaye14ten]

hangar, you were saying the sox were doomed.

that's different than saying the sox sucked

[Hangar18]

hangar, you were saying the sox were doomed.

that's different than saying the sox sucked


look man, theres a fine line between were doomed/we suck etc.
bottom line, everyone was lumped together and a ton of people were banished for not "believing", give me a break. I was just as frustrated as everyone else ..................

[fquaye14ten]

there's a fine line and "Dark Clouds" crossed it. And honestly it's not that fine a line.

It's the line between saying "we're playing poorly but I still believe this is a good team," and saying "we're playing poorly because we're not as good as the Indians and they're going to win."

[Maurice Archdeacon]

Im sorry. Who wrote that again? Bova Kiley? I remember a few people making posts exactly like that already .............. and being mocked.
I like the article, but to me it was written already, about 3 yrs ago .........by everyone else,
myself included

1 thing I always liked about Hangar- his humility, his unwillingness to grab all the attention and credit.

[Hangar18]

there's a fine line and "Dark Clouds" crossed it. And honestly it's not that fine a line.

It's the line between saying "we're playing poorly but I still believe this is a good team," and saying "we're playing poorly because we're not as good as the Indians and they're going to win."

Did you honestly think we'd win it all? At the rate we were going in September, it was a death march. They almost caught us, thank goodness for the Devil Rays. The DRays affected the race big time. Joe Credes HR has humongous too, as it stopped the bleeding for a day ........
thing is, everyone had their opinion, and a majority of SOX fans rightfully thought they were going to blow it. Who is to say they were wrong? or Right?

[fquaye14ten]

yes hangar. i did think we'd win it all.

did you honestly think we wouldn't?

[fquaye14ten]

a majority of SOX fans rightfully thought they were going to blow it. Who is to say they were wrong?

maybe in an alternate universe they were not wrong.

but here, in reality, a place you DO inhabit now and then, they were 100% irrefutably wrong.

A simple research of baseball's record books will show that pretty concretely

[CaptainBallz]

Did you honestly think we'd win it all? At the rate we were going in September, it was a death march. They almost caught us, thank goodness for the Devil Rays. The DRays affected the race big time. Joe Credes HR has humongous too, as it stopped the bleeding for a day ........
thing is, everyone had their opinion, and a majority of SOX fans rightfully thought they were going to blow it. Who is to say they were wrong? or Right?

As it's been pointed out, it wasn't so much the sentiment as it was how it was expressed... There's some people that seriously were pissing themselves, often completely irrationally, all over the internet.

When things are bad, everybody's obnoxious. The pissing and moaning Dark Clouds and the "rah-rah squad" Pollyanna's. They all suck ass when dropping two of three to KC down the stretch.

[Hangar18]

yes hangar. i did think we'd win it all.

did you honestly think we wouldn't?

Well, god bless you for thinking we'd win it all.
No, I didnt "believe" based on how we were playing, and in the sense that got people segregated and categorized. I didnt think we'd make it to the finish line before the other team catching us. We needed a little luck and we got it. Joe Crede's homer was the so big, and should've gotten more press for what it meant .......

[fquaye14ten]

you should go work for ESPN then.

I knew the Indians pitching wouldn't hold up and that their young talent would have difficulty handling a stretch run.....

I'm not saying I'm a genius, but on the other hand it doesn't take a genius to have seen we were playing badly either. No one disagreed. The problem with the dark clouds is that they acted like because we slumped it meant we were a different team than the one that dominated the first half of the year.

[Hangar18]

maybe in an alternate universe they were not wrong.

but here, in reality, a place you DO inhabit now and then, they were 100% irrefutably wrong.

A simple research of baseball's record books will show that pretty concretely

????????????
I dont have to look at the baseball record books to see who won it all,
cmon man, your being ridiculous now

[fquaye14ten]

here's what I saw on the boards in 05:

"This team doesn't have what it takes to win in the postseason. I thought we were good, but this month has prove they're not."

"If only we had killer instinct. That's what separates this team from championship teams."

"The Indians are just so much better than we are. We're doomed this year and in the years to come because I don't see the Indians going anywhere"

that is asinine. It probably seemed less asinine to them at the time b/c of how poorly they were playing, but looking back only further reveals how asinine it was, and why they deserved to be ripped for it.

[fquaye14ten]

????????????
I dont have to look at the baseball record books to see who won it all,
cmon man, your being ridiculous now

no, hangar, you're being ridiculous. you posted this:

everyone had their opinion, and a majority of SOX fans rightfully thought they were going to blow it. Who is to say they were wrong? or Right?

what a ridiculous thing to say. Who's to say they were wrong to say we were going to blow it? Gee, how about history? How about facts? It's quite easy to say they were wrong because, golly gee whiz, they were fucking wrong.

[Hangar18]

you should go work for ESPN then.

I knew the Indians pitching wouldn't hold up and that their young talent would have difficulty handling a stretch run.....

I'm not saying I'm a genius, but on the other hand it doesn't take a genius to have seen we were playing badly either. No one disagreed. The problem with the dark clouds is that they acted like because we slumped it meant we were a different team than the one that dominated the first half of the year.

And all I'm telling you is that if it weren't for the speed bump called the DRays, we may not have won it all. We needed a little luck right there on the spot and man we got it. How many years were the SOX pretty good and looked like we could go all the way, but an injury happened, or something crazy ............ I know alot of SOX fans were thinking shoot, here we go again, sniffing the prize but not close enough .........

Just because you were able to look in the crystal ball and see that the Indians wouldnt hold up, thats great, but how why would anyone have believed you? your point was just as valid. What If I banned a bunch of people for being Fluffy Clouds? wouldnt have made my point valid either ....
thats all I'm saying. thumbs up for knowing all along we'd win it all. I've been a SOX fan a long time and I was a little jaded

[Hangar18]

no, hangar, you're being ridiculous. you posted this:



what a ridiculous thing to say. Who's to say they were wrong to say we were going to blow it? Gee, how about history? How about facts? It's quite easy to say they were wrong because, golly gee whiz, they were fucking wrong.


AFTER THE FACT.

[Hangar18]

................ but looking back only further reveals how asinine it was, and why they deserved to be ripped for it.

the only asinine thing, is to look back on who made their feelings known and blast them for it. Nobody was right, and nobody was wrong because things didn't play out. This reminds me of .............. Oh never mind

[Sir Realist]

I wasn't a public dark cloud in September of 05, but I was still a mess. I don't think I had a solid bowel movement that entire month. I missed Crede's dinger against the Indians to win that one game because I was in the men's room under the Fan Deck pissing out my asshole for the 4th time that game - not a good time to be a Sox fan.

Thank Christ they made up for it in October.

[Efilnikufesin]

I said we would make the playoffs, and that we could beat Boston. I did also state that I didn't want the Angels, cause I didn't think we had a shot of beating them.. Even after Game 2-3.. I still was leary they would come back and win.

[Hangar18]

here's what I saw on the boards in 05:

"This team doesn't have what it takes to win in the postseason. I thought we were good, but this month has prove they're not."

"If only we had killer instinct. That's what separates this team from championship teams."

"The Indians are just so much better than we are. We're doomed this year and in the years to come because I don't see the Indians going anywhere"

that is asinine. It probably seemed less asinine to them at the time b/c of how poorly they were playing, but looking back only further reveals how asinine it was, and why they deserved to be ripped for it.

Yup, but lets not forget what else we saw on the boards in 05:
"Man, the Indians won again, is that team ever gonna lose?"

"Man, Indians have a pretty easy September, we've got the Twins"

"The way we've been playing, and the way they're gaining on us, they'll catch us with 1 week left"

"If the SOX are only 1 game up by the last weekend in Cleveland ........."

Everyone in both categories were labeled. That was wrong in my book.

[fquaye14ten]

Ok Hangar. The world is going to end tomorrow.

The apocalypse is going to happen. TOMORROW.

I guarantee it will happen. TOMORROW.

[fquaye14ten]

^^^it isn't silly for me to say this, given your logic

[fquaye14ten]

Yup, but lets not forget what else we saw on the boards in 05:
"Man, the Indians won again, is that team ever gonna lose?"

"Man, Indians have a pretty easy September, we've got the Twins"

"The way we've been playing, and the way they're gaining on us, they'll catch us with 1 week left"

"If the SOX are only 1 game up by the last weekend in Cleveland ........."

Everyone in both categories were labeled. That was wrong in my book.

those posts are fine. I have no problem with those posts. Those aren't the posts I'm talking about.

[Hangar18]

I said we would make the playoffs, and that we could beat Boston. I did also state that I didn't want the Angels, cause I didn't think we had a shot of beating them.. Even after Game 2-3.. I still was leary they would come back and win.


Then you sir, were considered a Dark Cloud.

[fquaye14ten]

^^^that is absolutely not true

[Hangar18]

those posts are fine. I have no problem with those posts. Those aren't the posts I'm talking about.

I know that ......... but I'm telling you was EVERYONE was lumped in the same category. You keep railing on me like I dont believe your point, I do
but your making the wrong point was all I've been trying to say.

[fquaye14ten]

dark clouds were the ones telling everyone who thought the sox could still do it that they were wrong.

everyone was worried in september. if you weren't you were on drugs or something.

but dark clouds were the ones trying to argue everyone down from still having faith.

dark clouds were the ones who said they wouldn't even watch the sox the rest of that year because the sox had ALREADY let them down.

[fquaye14ten]

^^^that is what bova was talking about

[Hangar18]

^^^that is absolutely not true


yes its true I'm sorry to say. I made that last comment you saw, the one you said you didnt have a problem with.

I was still Tagged/Labeled/Segregated with everyone else.

[fquaye14ten]

that's because you are a perennial dark cloud, hangar, always accusing KW and JR of being cheap.

remember when you railed against Dye?
remember when you pined for Carlos Lee?

your reputation preceded you.

[Hangar18]

Dark Clouds were also the ones who said they didnt think the SOX would hold up ............but they were still watching, hoping, praying. Thats what I was doing. I was at that Crede HR game .......... and i'll tell you ......everyone in my section that I share seats with (dark clouds if we want to call them that one and all) we were all DOWN and DEPRESSED.
I remember just blankly staring at the field, all of us scoreboard watching knowing we needed a win, somehow someway .................. When he hit that Home Run, which landed a few rows away from me.

The way we hugged and jumped and cheered .......... the way the bullpen guys jumped and celebrated ........... you'd have thought we won it all right there. You know why we all did that? EVERYONE WAS DOWN ............
that was such a huge lift, a reprieve if you will. There were a lot of SOX fans who thought the worst, not just the ones online

[fquaye14ten]

Like I said: EVERYONE was worried. Dark Clouds were the ones who were like the Indians fan in Major League who seemed to take pleasure in the team losing cuz it proved they were right....notice how that dude jumped up and down when they beat the (sigh) White Sox......

Everyone's happy when things are going their way. It's how you comport yourself when things are not that defines you as a fan

[Hangar18]

that's because you are a perennial dark cloud, hangar, always accusing KW and JR of being cheap.

remember when you railed against Dye?
remember when you pined for Carlos Lee?

your reputation preceded you.

Jermaine Dye. A guy coming off a major injury? A guy who I wondered why we were taking a chance on not knowing what we would get? The guy who had a terrible April and May? The guy that they signed to a majorly cheap contract (compare to now) That guy?

Carlos Lee? The guy I was furious that we traded for a .240 hitter? A guy who I wasnt sure could play LF, could get on base enough, and might be an injury case? Openly wondered how that was all we could get for a 30plus 100Rbi guy for? That guy?

[fquaye14ten]

well, you refused to trust in Kenny's vision is the main point. You decided Kenny and JR did not know how to run a team.

How'd that work out for us?

[Hangar18]

your reputation preceded you.

The only thing that preceded other "dark clouds" were the ones who followed them around and called them "Dark Clouds" because they didnt "believe" like they did ...............

my arguments/opinions back then were just, and I offered reasons for them.
you dont have a right to say my opinions were completely wrong ..... just because you dont agree with them .........

How about, I dont agree Hangar?

[Hangar18]

well, you refused to trust in Kenny's vision is the main point. You decided Kenny and JR did not know how to run a team.

How'd that work out for us?

No, we discussed Dark Clouds, Fluffy Clouds, how it was UNFAIR that dark clouds were being labeled, you said it was OK, I said no it wasnt, now, now your trolling and saying I didnt trust Kenny?

[Myrtle]

Hindsight is always 20/20... I can't imagine Hangar or anyone admitting to being a "dark cloud" or not believing that the Sox could make it in September of 2005. I certainly had my doubts but once they won it all became obvious to everyone that they were going to win. I say who cares - they won the 2005 World Series and now we can focus on winning 2007, right?

[Hangar18]

Hindsight is always 20/20... I can't imagine Hangar or anyone admitting to being a "dark cloud" or not believing that the Sox could make it in September of 2005. I certainly had my doubts but once they won it all became obvious to everyone that they were going to win. I say who cares - they won the 2005 World Series and now we can focus on winning 2007, right?

AMEN. Its kind of ridiculous that were all pointing fingers now (very other-sitely) I'll freely admit I was worried in September 05. So was everyone else. I freely admit I was very worried about the Dye signing. I guess im proud to be one of the original Dark Clouds

.......dont laugh, being a SOX fan means theres a little Dark Cloud in all of us

[fquaye14ten]

The only thing that preceded other "dark clouds" were the ones who followed them around and called them "Dark Clouds" because they didnt "believe" like they did ...............

my arguments/opinions back then were just, and I offered reasons for them.
you dont have a right to say my opinions were completely wrong ..... just because you dont agree with them .........

How about, I dont agree Hangar?

We tried that but you wouldn't listen to reason about why getting rid of Lee and replacing him with Dye was a good move....therefore at some point you have to say "this guy won't listen to reason on this issue."

I don't remember whether you were a dark cloud in september, but I do remember it got so bad I had to put Homefish and Lip on ignore because they wouldn't listen to reason and tell everyone who thought we still had a chance that they were full of shit.

Well guess who turned out to be full of shit...:rolleyes:

[Hangar18]

We tried that but you wouldn't listen to reason about why getting rid of Lee and replacing him with Dye was a good move....therefore at some point you have to say "this guy won't listen to reason on this issue."

I don't remember whether you were a dark cloud in september, but I do remember it got so bad I had to put Homefish and Lip on ignore because they wouldn't listen to reason and tell everyone who thought we still had a chance that they were full of shit.

Well guess who turned out to be full of shit...:rolleyes:


why do you keep turning this into I WAS RIGHT FOR BELIEVING .........
nobody was right, nobody was wrong, everyone was voicing their opinions
can we stop talking about this .....

[fquaye14ten]

voicing one's opinions is one thing Hangar. Refusing to listen to dissenting opinions and telling other people they are foolish is another. Especially if you turn out to be wrong.

This is something that you did with the Lee trade

("Why DON'T you People
ReaLize that JR and KENNY Are just
Being CHEAP and THAT they DON'T EVEN
care if The TEAM wins as Long as they MAKE MONEY")

and something that a lot of posters were doing around September during the "collapse".

It's not a matter of right or wrong. I thought Kenny Rogers was going to suck in the playoffs last year. I was wrong. I wasn't wrong to have my opinion. But I also didn't tell people who thought he was going to do well that they were crazy.

I guess either you can understand the distinction or you can't.

[Hangar18]

I don't remember whether you were a dark cloud in september, but I do remember it got so bad ............




by definition, I was indeed a dark cloud. Yeah, I remember how bad things got, people everywhere were talking about it, that was probably the LOWEST SOX FANS got in a long time, followed Ultimately a couple weeks later by how HIGH THINGS GOT. September and October was quite the rollercoaster emotionally now that I think about it some more .............

[Hangar18]

I guess either you can understand the distinction or you can't.


No. I'll never understand how a few people/websites continue to lump everyone into a category and measure their "sox-ness" accordingly. Like I said, being a Sox fan means we all have a little Dark Cloud in us whether we like it or not. I didnt agree with the jumping off the ledge philosophy some had, but hey, it was their opinion at the time right or wrong.
Theres no reason or place to point fingers now and gloat ......... whats the point?

We're all SOX fans for better for worse and we all think differently.
Thank Goodness. You know how boring this place would be if it weren't?
So glad to not be part of that way of thinking/lifestyle anymore...

[the fluffer]

yea, I remember the daily "End the Jermaine Dye Experiment NOW" threads on WSI. The World Series MVP experiment will hopefully continue in 2007...

[Hangar18]

Refusing to listen to dissenting opinions and telling other people they are foolish is another.

hahahahah, Yeah. I agree wholeheartedly

[SABRSox]

That's it! I've had enough.

An ellipsis is 3 periods. No more, no less. 3. ...

[Hangar18]

heh heh