ESPN 1000 Reports Buehrle & His Agent Will go to the Sox with Contract Ideas

[ChiSoxGirl]

I was listening to "The Show" tonight on ESPN 1000 with Carmen DeFalco & Jeff Dickerson and they had Bruce Levine on (I know his credibility isn't all that great, so take this for what it's worth). He reported that Buehrls & his agent are going to the Sox within the next few days with a couple three and four year contract ideas.

I think that Buehrls trying to get this taken care of now shows that he's not only committed to wanting to stay on the South Side, but will definitely take the "Hometown Discount" that we've already seen Konerko and a couple others take. If he sticks around, the majority of our rotation will be solidified for the next few years! :nana: C'mon Buehrls... re-sign! :praying:

[fquaye14ten]

12-13 per for 3 is the most kenny should consider paying before the season.

a 14 per wouldn't make me pissed though

[the fluffer]

I wouldn't expect anything less from him based on what I know about the person. Of course he doesn't owe it to anyone to take less and stay, but it seems like the Buehrle thing to do--as Konerko, Dye and Vazquez have done. There's a common heartbeat on this team you gotta love.

Oh, and let's hope he doesn't resign.

No, no resignations from Buehrle.

All the pieces I have read about him, how he has treated the rookie pitchers in camp and how he has helped Danks with his pickoff move etc... makes me hope even more that he'll re-sign. Whadda guy! I guess that's not really a good reason to want a guy on the team for 3 more years @ 14m a year... but still....

I hope something gets worked out. :thumbsup:

[fquaye14ten]

the only x-factor is does he want to play for the cards....because he is the ONE guy in baseball I believe would choose loyalty over $+hometown allegiance.

I honestly love buehrle---i think he's a class guy and he's my favorite player on the sox

[ChiSoxGirl]

Oh, and let's hope he doesn't resign.

I fixed my typo. :o I've been up for 17 hours and am tired. :sleeping:

[fquaye14ten]

zoso's a pud, never you mind

[the fluffer]

the only x-factor is does he want to play for the cards....because he is the ONE guy in baseball I believe would choose loyalty over $+hometown allegiance.

I honestly love buehrle---i think he's a class guy and he's my favorite player on the sox

Buehrle said after 2005 that his "prefered scenario" is to pitch for the Sox as long as they want him around and spend his last few professional years in St Louis, to retire there... much like Maddux coming back to Chicago (only to leave), Glavine wanting to go to ATL to win #300, etc... Hopefully, well... kinda, MB will have enough wins to want to win #300 at some point, too.

[itsnotrequired]

12-13 per for 3 is the most kenny should consider paying before the season.

a 14 per wouldn't make me pissed though

Bah, this is essentially what they offered him at the All-Star break. If MB didn't take it then, why would he take it now?

[Efilnikufesin]

Bah, this is essentially what they offered him at the All-Star break. If MB didn't take it then, why would he take it now?

And its an insult.. 15mil for 3 years.. That is where the bidding should start. If you give Garland and Vazquez 11-12mil.. you have to give your ace at least 3-4 more.

[1951Campbell]

Well for one, then he was an All-Star and since he's a sub .500 pitcher with a 5 ERA. :shrug:

And you think he's gonna do that from here on out? C'mon.

[the fluffer]

Bah, this is essentially what they offered him at the All-Star break. If MB didn't take it then, why would he take it now?

They offered him 3/33 at the all-star break last year, which is a lowball offer, all things considered. If he can settle with something closer to 3/38, then why not? Extending Vazquez was as much about sending a message to others that the Sox want insurance for not only injuries and poor performance, but departing free agents as well. Maybe Vazquez's extension (wanting to stay in Chicago, taking a pay cut when he could have gone to arbitration, etc) will help KW's argument in regards to any offer to MB, without even having to say a word.

[Efilnikufesin]

They offered him 3/33 at the all-star break last year, which is a lowball offer, all things considered. If he can settle with something closer to 3/38, then why not? Extending Vazquez was as much about sending a message to others that the Sox want insurance for not only injuries and poor performance, but departing free agents as well. Maybe Vazquez's extension (wanting to stay in Chicago, taking a pay cut when he could have gone to arbitration, etc) will help KW's argument in regards to any offer to MB, without even having to say a word.

MB has the upper hand in this.. We need him more than he needs us..

[Unregistered]

I honestly love buehrle

Then I suggest you marry him.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8743/burnmy2.gif

BURN!

[fquaye14ten]

And its an insult.. 15mil for 3 years.. That is where the bidding should start. If you give Garland and Vazquez 11-12mil.. you have to give your ace at least 3-4 more.

Buehrle hasn't been our ace since 2004, and even then Freddy was probably our ace once we acquired him.

[oeo]

Buehrle hasn't been our ace since 2004, and even then Freddy was probably our ace once we acquired him.

Bullshit...he was our ace all the way up until August '05 when Contreras started owning. I don't even think we had an ace last year (Contreras was the first half)...I don't consider Garland's year an ace-type season.

[fquaye14ten]

ok...but in 05 come playoff time who started the first games? Contreras... Buehrle was our second best pitcher that year.

In 06 we may not have had an ace, but Buehrle was our 4th or 5th best pitcher.

Even in 04 he didn't really pitch in such a way that he was a definitive ace.

I love the guy, but to call him an ace is fucking silly.

[oeo]

ok...but in 05 come playoff time who started the first games? Contreras... Buehrle was our second best pitcher that year.

That's not the point. You said he hasn't been the ace since 2004, when he was our top starter throughout most of 2005, as well.

In 06 we may not have had an ace, but Buehrle was our 4th or 5th best pitcher.

Even in 04 he didn't really pitch in such a way that he was a definitive ace.

I love the guy, but to call him an ace is fucking silly.

It's really not. Just because he doesn't have ace stuff like a Johan Santana, does not mean he cannot be your go-to #1 starter...which he has been for 3+ years. And you can call Freddy Garcia an ace, who has not even had the career Buehrle has, but Buehrle cannot?

[fquaye14ten]

he can be my opening day starter any time, but I really don't think he's going to be the #1 starter of a world series team, ever.

as you see this year, opening day starter is an arbitrary distinction that has more to do with who the manager and gm feel they want to symbolically honor than who is the best pitcher on the team. Buehrle's even admitted (because he's a class act) that most of the years he was the opening day starter he probably wasn't the best starter....

just the way it is. Buehrle's the kind of guy the best you can expect from him is about a 3.25 ERA. A very solid pitcher, but hardly ace quality. Zito at best, without the ability to go win a cy young.

[Efilnikufesin]

Buehrle hasn't been our ace since 2004, and even then Freddy was probably our ace once we acquired him.

I know I am going to regret asking this.. Exactly who has been the ace? IMO he is the closet thing on this team to an ACE.. now one must define what Ace is.

Danny Wright?

[Hangar18]

I was listening to "The Show" tonight on ESPN 1000 with Carmen DeFalco & Jeff Dickerson and they had Bruce Levine on (I know his credibility isn't all that great, so take this for what it's worth). He reported that Buehrls & his agent are going to the Sox within the next few days with a couple three and four year contract ideas.

I think that Buehrls trying to get this taken care of now shows that he's not only committed to wanting to stay on the South Side, but will definitely take the "Hometown Discount" that we've already seen Konerko and a couple others take. If he sticks around, the majority of our rotation will be solidified for the next few years! :nana: C'mon Buehrls... re-sign! :praying:


This is good. I almost wonder if KW didnt plan the Javy signing (took everyone by surprise) to get the ball rolling on MB.

[fquaye14ten]

I know I am going to regret asking this.. Exactly who has been the ace? IMO he is the closet thing on this team to an ACE.. now one must define what Ace is.

Danny Wright?

so every team must have an ace?

well, in 2003, our ace was probably Loaiza

[Efilnikufesin]

so every team must have an ace?

well, in 2003, our ace was probably Loaiza

What does that have to do with anything, The Loazia comment?

Define your Def of what an ace is..

[fquaye14ten]

i think i would begin by saying an ace is a pitcher who you could IMAGINE in his BEST YEAR having an Era around 3.00 or under.

[fquaye14ten]

I would also suggest the potential to put up 200+ K's, or at the very least have a K/9 or 9 or greater as another important factor in being an ace....

Unless, say, Mark Redman's been an ace b/c he's been the best pitcher on the Royals.....

[Efilnikufesin]

My definition is the best pitcher who gives us the best chance for the team to win. Mark has been that guy for the better part of his career. Other than the 2 months of hell in 06, anytime he is on the mound the Sox have a shot at winning.. I can't say that about anyone else on this staff right now.

[Lucifer]

Buehrle hasn't been our ace since 2004, and even then Freddy was probably our ace once we acquired him.

Then why has he been the opening day starter for what....the last 4-5 years? Noboby on our staff has put up Buehrle type numbers over the last 6 years but you say he's not our ace. Come on dude be serious. :jagoff:

Freddy hasnt been an ace since he left Seattle!

[fquaye14ten]

My definition is the best pitcher who gives us the best chance for the team to win. Mark has been that guy for the better part of his career. Other than the 2 months of hell in 06, anytime he is on the mound the Sox have a shot at winning.. I can't say that about anyone else on this staff right now.

i guess it depends on your definition of an ace who an ace is.

Since you were talking about Buehrle deserving "ace-type money" it made me think you were saying an ace was an ace no matter what team he plays on, a la GM's perception of Zito...

Buehrle is probably considered a number 2 or 3 starter by most GM's in the league, hence my assertion that he's not an ace. For the White Sox, he's been the best pitcher very often and most consistent pitcher always. I guess that means he's our ace...but doesn't necessarily entitle him to ace-type money (16 million +)

[Lucifer]

ok...but in 05 come playoff time who started the first games? Contreras... Buehrle was our second best pitcher that year.

Ozzie was playing the hot hand is all.

[fquaye14ten]

Contreras had by far the best stuff of any veteran pitcher on our team.

He also has the capability to post a sub 3.00 ERA and record 200+ strikeouts.

More GM's would probably consider Contreras an ace than would consider Buehrle an ace.

[Hangar18]

Ozzie was playing the hot hand is all.


Rightfully so. I think the SOX are defining ACE as Most Innings Pitched.
or whoever is the cheapest to sign

[Lucifer]

I know I am going to regret asking this.. Exactly who has been the ace? IMO he is the closet thing on this team to an ACE.. now one must define what Ace is.

Danny Wright?

According to MLB an Ace is described as a teams best pitcher. In this case like you said, Buehrle is our Ace!:thumbsup:

[Efilnikufesin]

i guess it depends on your definition of an ace who an ace is.

Since you were talking about Buehrle deserving "ace-type money" it made me think you were saying an ace was an ace no matter what team he plays on, a la GM's perception of Zito...

Buehrle is probably considered a number 2 or 3 starter by most GM's in the league, hence my assertion that he's not an ace. For the White Sox, he's been the best pitcher very often and most consistent pitcher always. I guess that means he's our ace...but doesn't necessarily entitle him to ace-type money (16 million +)

IMO Mark is the 2nd best pitcher in our Division, I am sure you can figure out #1 is. When you are the 2nd best in the hardest division in baseball you get paid. Giving Mark the same as your #4-5 guys is down right an insult.

[Efilnikufesin]

Contreras had by far the best stuff of any veteran pitcher on our team. Wrong that would be Vazquez

He also has the capability to post a sub 3.00 ERA and record 200+ strikeouts. Yes, Vazquez is.. Contreas can't stay healthy to do it.

More GM's would probably consider Contreras an ace than would consider Buehrle an ace.

Really you have talked to most GMs? :shrug:

[fquaye14ten]

So he's the second best pitcher in the division. Let's look at #'s, not at the fact that there aren't a lot of sensational pitchers in the ALC. Mark's had two years in his career with an ERA under 3.50. He's had no years even approaching 200 K's. I think his career high is like 170.

Sure he had that 19 win season in 2002, but you said wins are meaningless.

ALC has the best pitching, but that's because of depth---4 teams with solid rotations rather than, as in the NLW the ALW and ALE, 2 teams with outstanding rotations.

I agree that Buehrle deserves more than Vazquez. I do not think, however, that he deserves Beckett or Zito money (I don't think Beckett or Zito deserved Beckett or Zito money) and I also don't think it's an easy situation for KW to ink a guy coming off his worst year by far to a 14m+ deal over 3 or 4 years

[fquaye14ten]

Really you have talked to most GMs? :shrug:

I was talking about in 05. Notice the past tense:rolleyes:

[Lucifer]

Contreras had by far the best stuff of any veteran pitcher on our team.

He also has the capability to post a sub 3.00 ERA and record 200+ strikeouts.

More GM's would probably consider Contreras an ace than would consider Buehrle an ace.

Best stuff doesnt mean shit. Javy has great stuff but hasnt put it all together..... YET!

Jose is what...34? At this stage of his career I dont see him puting up those numbers. Javy has a better shot than Jose. Jose cant even make all 33 of his starts.

Who cares what other GM's think or what you may think they think? It's about what KW thinks and thats it.:jagoff:

[Efilnikufesin]

I was talking about in 05. Notice the past tense:rolleyes:

Well everything is past tense since the season has not started..

[Efilnikufesin]

So he's the second best pitcher in the division. Let's look at #'s, not at the fact that there aren't a lot of sensational pitchers in the ALC. Mark's had two years in his career with an ERA under 3.50. He's had no years even approaching 200 K's. I think his career high is like 170.

Sure he had that 19 win season in 2002, but you said wins are meaningless.

ALC has the best pitching, but that's because of depth---4 teams with solid rotations rather than, as in the NLW the ALW and ALE, 2 teams with outstanding rotations.

I agree that Buehrle deserves more than Vazquez. I do not think, however, that he deserves Beckett or Zito money (I don't think Beckett or Zito deserved Beckett or Zito money) and I also don't think it's an easy situation for KW to ink a guy coming off his worst year by far to a 14m+ deal over 3 or 4 years

Give me your top 5 pitchers in the ALC.

Wait Josh Beckett is an Ace now? Shit when did that happen.. OOO he plays for Boston ESPN says he is.. Ahh so that must make him one then.

[fquaye14ten]

hey buddy remember in my post when I said:

I do not think, however, that he deserves Beckett or Zito money (I don't think Beckett or Zito deserved Beckett or Zito money)

I would hope you remembered that, since you quoted it.

[fquaye14ten]

Well everything is past tense since the season has not started..

If you would have actually taken the time to read the exchange b/t me and lucifer you would have seen we were talking about the 05 playoffs.

but you didn't, so here we are.

[Efilnikufesin]

hey buddy remember in my post when I said:

I do not think, however, that he deserves Beckett or Zito money (I don't think Beckett or Zito deserved Beckett or Zito money)

I would hope you remembered that, since you quoted it.

Great still doesn't answer the question of how Beckett became an Ace.. Since we are talking about Aces.. and since you just happen to bring up his name I am wonder why that is?

[fquaye14ten]

Like you said: PERCEPTION.

Google Beckett+Ace or Zito+Ace and see how many more hits you'll get than Buehrle+ace.

Doesn't mean it's true that they're aces, since I know that's what you're going to latch onto and beat into the ground from this post, but perception leads to contract value being higher, as the Zito signing.

And to be quite honest, Zito and Beckett's K/9 are a lot higher than Buehrle's, and Zito HAS posted ERA's under 3.00 so maybe there's some truth to that.

Who would I rather have? I don't know. At equal contract value Buehrle or Beckett? Probably Buehrle. But that doesn't mean that signing Buehrle for Beckett money is a good decision.

[Efilnikufesin]

You still have failed to answer your Top 5 pitchers in our division?

So because you goggled it, then it must be true? I give you that once ESPN labeled them aces people called them that.. Alot of SportsFans go by what ESPN tells them. But, that still fails to answer the question of why he was brought up.. josh Beckett had one good game 7 and everyone thought he was great.. Beckett is a good #2 Starter, not a #1

[fquaye14ten]

i told you not to latch onto it.

I SAID PERCEPTION LEADS TO CONTRACT VALUE

read my post if you're going to try to argue against.

[fquaye14ten]

I told you that Buehrle IS the 2nd best pitcher in our division.

I agreed. I said that I don't think that means much because there is only one bonafide ace in our division. Only one pitcher who one can expect to post a sub 3.00 ERA and have a K/9 ratio approaching 9.

Only one cy young candidate. (and yes, I know Buehrle finished 5th in 05, with his best season. But it was also a down year for pitching, and Buehrle got that voting largely on the strength of his wins).

I look forward to what minute, nearly inconsequential point from this post you will pick out and beat into the ground, choosing to ignore the rest

[Efilnikufesin]

i told you not to latch onto it.

I SAID PERCEPTION LEADS TO CONTRACT VALUE

read my post if you're going to try to argue against.

I read it, you backtrack to attempt to save your ass.. and fail at that.

Do I get who you feel are the top 5 pitchers in our division.. Since you don't think Mark is # 2.. I be interested in seeing who you think it is.

as for mine..

1. Santana
2. Mark
3. CC
4. Jose
5. Bonderman

Edit: it was not till after my post that I saw you agree that Mark is the 2nd best.

[fquaye14ten]

i completely agree with your assessment.

[Unregistered]

This thread gives me a headache.

http://www.lunarforums.com/forum/Smileys/default/head_hurts_kr.gif

[fquaye14ten]

So he's the second best pitcher in the division. Let's look at #'s, not at the fact that there aren't a lot of sensational pitchers in the ALC. Mark's had two years in his career with an ERA under 3.50. He's had no years even approaching 200 K's. I think his career high is like 170.

Sure he had that 19 win season in 2002, but you said wins are meaningless.

ALC has the best pitching, but that's because of depth---4 teams with solid rotations rather than, as in the NLW the ALW and ALE, 2 teams with outstanding rotations.

I agree that Buehrle deserves more than Vazquez. I do not think, however, that he deserves Beckett or Zito money (I don't think Beckett or Zito deserved Beckett or Zito money) and I also don't think it's an easy situation for KW to ink a guy coming off his worst year by far to a 14m+ deal over 3 or 4 years

remember when i posted this?

[fquaye14ten]

This thread gives me a headache

http://www.lunarforums.com/forum/Smileys/default/head_hurts_kr.gif

then take a midol

[Efilnikufesin]

I look forward to what minute, nearly inconsequential point from this post you will pick out and beat into the ground, choosing to ignore the rest

I'm sorry I unlike you don't need to respond to everything another poster says just to up my post count.


I agreed. I said that I don't think that means much because there is only one bonafide ace in our division. Only one pitcher who one can expect to post a sub 3.00 ERA and have a K/9 ratio approaching 9.

Right now there is.. Bonderman and Verlander have a chance to be that speical.. As does Liriano when he comes back. Mark, is a contact pitcher, much like Maddux is,.. Let me ask then is Greg Maddux a Ace, or was he ever?


Only one cy young candidate. (and yes, I know Buehrle finished 5th in 05, with his best season. But it was also a down year for pitching, and Buehrle got that voting largely on the strength of his wins).

Actually Wins have little to do with the Cy voting.. If that was the Case Jon would have been higher since he had more wins that Mark that year. Mark was better in almost every Cat except wins and WHIP(by a whooping .01)

[Efilnikufesin]

remember when i posted this?

Pig Fucker.. can I call you pig Fucker?
Sorry when you threw Beckett out there I lost all track of rational thought..

[fquaye14ten]

only my friends can call me pig fucker

[fquaye14ten]

Right now there is.. Bonderman and Verlander have a chance to be that speical.. As does Liriano when he comes back. Mark, is a contact pitcher, much like Maddux is,.. Let me ask then is Greg Maddux a Ace, or was he ever?




Greg Maddux was an ace. Before you take that as some sort of victory, let's look at some stats:

11 times Maddux posted an ERA of 3.05 or lower. 6 times did he post an era under 2.50. Twice did he post an ERA under 2.00. Maddux has struck out 200 in one season and has 5 seasons with 190 or more strikeouts. Even with 4 lousy seasons tacked on at the end of his career, Maddux has a career WHIP of 1.13. Buehrle's career ERA is 1.26. Maddux has four times posted a WHIP under 1.00, even as low as 0.811 in one season.

I don't realy have to try to hard to prove Maddux an ace. Oh---and for the majority of Maddux's career he threw in the low 90's... not the mid-80's.

[Sir Realist]

only my friends can call me pig fucker

Last Tango in Paris
written by Bernardo Bertolucci, Franco Arcalli, & Agnes Varda, also improvised by Marlon Brando

(Before the beginning of the film, Paul's wife commits suicide by slitting her wrists in a bathtub. She managed a cheap hotel in Paris (thus the "knick-knacks left behind"). They lived in the hotel together, and his wife cheated on him with another hotel resident, Marcel. In this scene, her dead body is lying in state in one of the hotel's bedrooms, surrounded by purple flowers.)

Paul: You look ridiculous in that makeup. Like a caricature of a whore. A little touch of mommy in the night. (sits in a chair next to his dead wife's body) Fake Ophelia drowned in the bathtub. (scoots closer) I wish you could see yourself. You'd really laugh. You're your mother's mastepiece. (scoots closer again) There's too many fucking flowers in this place. I can't breathe. You know, in the top of the closet, cardboard box, I found all your -- I found all your little goodies. Pens, key chains, foreign money, French ticklers, the whole shot. Even a clergymen's collar. I didn't know you collected all those little knick-knacks left behind.

Even if a husband lives ... 200 fucking years, he's never gonna be able to discover his wife's true nature. I mean, I -- I might be able to comprehend the universe ... but I'll never discover the truth about you. Never. I mean, who the hell were you?

Remember that day, the first day I was there? I knew I couldn't get into your pants unless I said, uh... What did I say? Oh, yes. Uh, "May I have my bill, please? I have to leave." Remember?

Last night, I ripped off the lights on your mother and the whole joint went bananas. All your guests, as you used to call them. Well, I guess that includes me, doesn't it? Huh? It does include me, doesn't it? For five years I was more a guest in this fucking flophouse than a husband. With privileges, of course. Then, to help me understand, you let me inherit Marcel, the husband's double whose room was the double of ours. And you know what? I didn't even have the guts to ask him, didn't even have the guts to ask him if the same numbers you and I did were the same numbers you did with him.

Our marriage was nothing more than a... a foxhole for you and all it took for you to get out was a 35-cent razor and a tub full of water. You cheap, goddamn fucking, godforsaken whore, I hope you rot in hell. You're worse than the dirtiest street pig that anyone could find anywhere, and you know why? You know why? Because you lied. You lied to me and I trusted you. You lied, you knew you were lying.

C'mon, tell me you didn't lie. Haven't you got anything to say about that? You can think up something, can't you? Huh? Go on, tell me something. Go on, smile, you cunt. Go on. Tell me something sweet. Smile at me and say that I just misunderstood. (starting to cry) Go on, tell me... you pig fucker. You goddamn fucking, pig-fucking liar.

(openly sobbing) Rosa, I'm sorry -- I ... I just can't-- I can't stand it... to see these goddamn things on your face. (removes her false eyelashes) You never wore makeup, all this fucking shit. I'm gonna take this off your mouth. Lipstick. (wipes off her lipstick with a flower petal) Rosa. Oh, God. I'm sorry. I, I don't know why you did it. I'd do it too, if I knew how. I just don't know-- I just have to find a way.

(He is interrupted by a prostitute and her john, downstairs, wanting to be let into the hotel.)

[fquaye14ten]

paragraphs are your friend :)

[Efilnikufesin]

Greg Maddux was an ace. Before you take that as some sort of victory, let's look at some stats:

11 times Maddux posted an ERA of 3.05 or lower. 6 times did he post an era under 2.50. Twice did he post an ERA under 2.00. Maddux has struck out 200 in one season and has 5 seasons with 190 or more strikeouts. Even with 4 lousy seasons tacked on at the end of his career, Maddux has a career WHIP of 1.13. Buehrle's career ERA is 1.26. Maddux has four times posted a WHIP under 1.00, even as low as 0.811 in one season.

I don't realy have to try to hard to prove Maddux an ace. Oh---and for the majority of Maddux's career he threw in the low 90's... not the mid-80's.

What would I claim.. Maddux was known and still is a pitcher who pitches to contact.

NL= Lower ERA, his K's.. Him and Glavine had a 20" plate helped out. Notice when Quest Tech came around his k's went down.

I am in no way comparing the two as equals.. Simply asking Maddux being a contact pitcher can qualify as an Ace or not.

[Sir Realist]

paragraphs are your friend :)

Okay, you're right. I make fix. :)

[fquaye14ten]

sure....but mostly b/c he got a lot of strikeouts.

i'm not big on the idea of pitchers having no control of batted balls. I think that's mostly bullshit.

I do however, have noticed, that pitchers that could be called aces in the league tend to have high k/9 ratios.

[Efilnikufesin]

sure....but mostly b/c he got a lot of strikeouts.

i'm not big on the idea of pitchers having no control of batted balls. I think that's mostly bullshit.

I do however, have noticed, that pitchers that could be called aces in the league tend to have high k/9 ratios.

his K's.. Him and Glavine had a 20" plate helped out. Notice when Quest Tech came around his k's went down.

guess you missed that...

So once his K's went down.. does he not be an Ace any longer?

[fquaye14ten]

his K's.. Him and Glavine had a 20" plate helped out. Notice when Quest Tech came around his k's went down.

guess you missed that...

So once his K's went down.. does he not be an Ace any longer?

if he's unable to pitch effectively, absolutely.

It's a question of performance. NL or not, wide plate or not, Maddux had 4 seasons in a row where he was practically unhittable.

Sure if he had a smaller plate, he wouldn't have been as effective and wouldn't have been an ace. But that's just the way things were.

If Buehrle had Maddux's strike zone he would probably have a lot more strikeouts and a lot lower ERA. But he doesn't.

[Efilnikufesin]

When QuesTech came out, he was pretty old, too.

Those Atlanta guys worked within their constraints and dominated. It doesn't matter what their strike zone was. If you ask me, they should just make the plate itself wider so there would be no controversy--and less offense.

If that was the case, then most pitcher in the league not on ATL staff would have had that advantage..they didn't.

AS for less offensive.. Move the fences and raise the mounds.

[the fluffer]

KW and Buehrle's agent went back and forth through the media the last few days. Buehrle's agent references longer term contracts, such as Meche's 5 year deal and Zito's 7 year deal. KW counters with "Those deals prove to be detrimental to the club..."

Here's the links if you want to read up on it.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/286894,sox0307.article
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070307&content_id=1832910&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp

Doesn't sound like anything will get done anytime soon.

[fquaye14ten]

this is besides the point. We're not arguing over whether Maddux was a Socratic Ace: that in any situation he would have been successful, in any league, on any team.

The fact is his #'s were vastly superior to almost everyone else in baseball when he won his 4 Cy Youngs. Whatever the reason for that, by being one of the 10 best pitchers in baseball, he was clearly an ace.

[Efilnikufesin]

this is besides the point. We're not arguing over whether Maddux was a Socratic Ace: that in any situation he would have been successful, in any league, on any team.

The fact is his #'s were vastly superior to almost everyone else in baseball when he won his 4 Cy Youngs. Whatever the reason for that, by being one of the 10 best pitchers in baseball, he was clearly an ace.

You missing the point..
They never thought they could get Kevin Mitchell to play to his potential that is why they dealt him.. They got a better player in Kevin Reynolds at the time. They felt like a much better team to repeat than before. And with that Rotation who can blame them.

[Efilnikufesin]

Are you talking about the 87 Mets? :confused:

Again you are missing the point..

Gibson had less HR, Less RBI and still won the MVP over Strawberry.. There is no reason why that happened.. The voting was flawed. The only thing Strawberry lacked was 21 point difference in BA.