Studies support death penalty as a deterrent

[Deuce]

Anti-death penalty forces have gained momentum in the past few years, with a moratorium in Illinois, court disputes over lethal injection in more than a half-dozen states and progress toward outright abolishment in New Jersey.

The steady drumbeat of DNA exonerations — pointing out flaws in the justice system — has weighed against capital punishment. The moral opposition is loud, too, echoed in Europe and the rest of the industrialized world, where all but a few countries banned executions years ago.

What gets little notice, however, is a series of academic studies over the last half-dozen years that claim to settle a once hotly debated argument — whether the death penalty acts as a deterrent to murder. The analyses say yes. They count between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer.

Link to Article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070611/ap_on_re_us/death_penalty_deterrence_4;_ylt=Asz1f4OvE7BGqk9J4a Rc6ZIE1vAI)

Though in the last few years I have steadily grown more and more anti-death penalty, I have to admit this is a bit statling. I don't think it is enough to change my mind back (I simply don't trust the legal system enough, and would rather fail on the side of preserving the life of the innocent), but it definately adds weight to the deterrent argument.

Deuce

[Prope]

Wait I don't get it.

Is this saying that because people are put to death, people who would likely kill people are less likely to? Or, is it saying people who get out of prison who were on death row are the ones killing more?

It seems to me, if you really had it in your mind to kill somebody, you're going to do it.

[gbergman]

My main problem with Death Penalty is what most anti death penalty persons is. Innocent people die for crimes they never committed.

I think it is necessary but I think it should only be applied to those whom there is absolutley no question that they committed the act. For example, I think people who kill fire fighters, police, or other servicemen while those servicemen are on duy should be executed if its 1st degree murder a life sentence plea should be no option.

The one thing about the death penalty is the cost to the tax payers. After all the appeals and stuff the cost is approxamitley 5 million to the states tax payers execute a person within about 5 - 10 years. It costs 36500 dollars a year to house an inmate in the state of California. If you house someone for 50 years for 1st degree murder the cost is almost 2 million dollars. I know this because of the Corrections course I took and other criminal justice classes I am taking.

This is a hard issue for me because as much as I would like to support the death penalty I don't want innocent people dieing for other peoples crimes. BTW in CA if you are later found innocent of the crime you were convicted of the restitution is 100 dollars per day served prior to any lawsuits.

[samram]

My main problem with Death Penalty is what most anti death penalty persons is. Innocent people die for crimes they never committed.

I think it is necessary but I think it should only be applied to those whom there is absolutley no question that they committed the act. For example, I think people who kill fire fighters, police, or other servicemen while those servicemen are on duy should be executed if its 1st degree murder a life sentence plea should be no option.

So how do you know if there is absolutely no question? Remember that to get a conviction, the entire jury must feel that the person's guilt is beyond a reasonable doubt. So how much more sure must one be for there to be "absolutely no question"?

Also, I'm not so sure about the servicemen thing. I think you need to look at the facts of those cases too.

The one thing about the death penalty is the cost to the tax payers. After all the appeals and stuff the cost is approxamitley 5 million to the states tax payers execute a person within about 5 - 10 years. It costs 36500 dollars a year to house an inmate in the state of California. If you house someone for 50 years for 1st degree murder the cost is almost 2 million dollars. I know this because of the Corrections course I took and other criminal justice classes I am taking.

This is a hard issue for me because as much as I would like to support the death penalty I don't want innocent people dieing for other peoples crimes. BTW in CA if you are later found innocent of the crime you were convicted of the restitution is 100 dollars per day served prior to any lawsuits.

Is the restitution automatic or subject to legislative discretion? Just curious.

[fquaye14ten]

So how do you know if there is absolutely no question? Remember that to get a conviction, the entire jury must feel that the person's guilt is beyond a reasonable doubt. So how much more sure must one be for there to be "absolutely no question"?


That's the point--jurors are notoriously biased and inaccurate. I can make peace with that fact only so long as they don't hold a person's physical life in their hands

[samram]

That's the point--jurors are notoriously biased and inaccurate. I can make peace with that fact only so long as they don't hold a person's physical life in their hands

Well, I was trying to make an argument against the death penalty, but maybe it didn't come through properly. My point was that even with the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, hardly a weak one, there are innocent people getting convicted, so what exactly would an "absolutely no question" standard bring to the table that would reduce incorrect convictions so that one could be comfortable putting the convicted to death? Even if bergman's not using absolutely no question as a term of art, how can there ever be absolutely no question without video, or a well-informed confession, DNA, etc., if even those leave absolutely no question? I mean, you don't find the bodies in the basement closet every time.

[CaptainBallz]

there's no justification to be found for the death penalty... Anywhere. Especially in this country...
People need to stop

[fquaye14ten]

Well, I was trying to make an argument against the death penalty, but maybe it didn't come through properly. My point was that even with the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard, hardly a weak one, there are innocent people getting convicted, so what exactly would an "absolutely no question" standard bring to the table that would reduce incorrect convictions so that one could be comfortable putting the convicted to death? Even if bergman's not using absolutely no question as a term of art, how can there ever be absolutely no question without video, or a well-informed confession, DNA, etc., if even those leave absolutely no question? I mean, you don't find the bodies in the basement closet every time.

exactly---that's why I'm against the dp too. even with dna testing, there is still the possibility of wrongful conviction.

i can deal with wrongful conviction as long as someone doesn't have to DIE for it.

there's no justification to be found for the death penalty... Anywhere. Especially in this country...
People need to stop

realist is going to come and start posting about how, like religion, since the death penalty has been found in every civilization, that makes it right

[CaptainBallz]

realist is going to come and start posting about how, like religion, since the death penalty has been found in every civilization, that makes it right

Since we're at such a high point in civilization, too.. I say let's "conserve" these proud traditions.

[fquaye14ten]

say word cap tin ballz

[gbergman]

Is the restitution automatic or subject to legislative discretion? Just curious.

Automatic

[maurice]

I'm not particularly adverse to killing people, but the death penalty is dumb and expensive. I get sick to my stomach any time the blood-thirsty motherfuckers bitch that somebody "only" got natural life with no possibility of parole.

[Sir Realist]

realist is going to come and start posting about how, like religion, since the death penalty has been found in every civilization, that makes it right

Incorrect.

That's the point--jurors are notoriously biased and inaccurate. I can make peace with that fact only so long as they don't hold a person's physical life in their hands

This is actually my favorite post on the thread so far and one I wholeheartedly agree with.

[maurice]

The death penalty is tough for a Christian. On one hand, Jesus said that everybody should love their enemies and turn the other cheek. On the other hand, the death penalty resulted in Jesus dying for everybody's sins, which is nice.

[CaptainBallz]

Doesn't it fall firmly into the whole "Wrath" category?

[fquaye14ten]

Incorrect.



.

hypocrisy, therefore!!! :)

[Sir Realist]

The Biography Channel is showing a two hour documentary called "The Death Penalty on Trial" right now. It's 2 hours long, and so far it looks really good. They're gonna rerun it at midnite, so set your VCR, DVR or Tivo to catch this.

[soxwon]

Death Penalty is great, lets kill these mothers.
An eye for a eye.
Decision is rendered- Guilty
Sentence -Death Penalty
No appeals
2 days later Mother dies, no wait Penalty
America shows its strength

[CaptainBallz]

You're an old kook

[infinite1]

Death Penalty is great, lets kill these mothers.
An eye for a eye.
Decision is rendered- Guilty
Sentence -Death Penalty
No appeals
2 days later Mother dies, no wait Penalty
America shows its strength

An eye for an eye would be like someone punches u, u punch him back not your family calls the cops and the cops punch you

Just put them in jail and let him get :anal: ed 5 times a day buy 3 big black guys named Big Chocolate

[fquaye14ten]

that's not really how the biblical sense of eye for an eye worked

[maurice]

Decision is rendered- Guilty
Sentence -Death Penalty
No appeals
2 days later Mother dies, no wait Penalty
America shows its strength
2 years later, we find out that somebody else did it
America shows its stupidity

[chisoxtony]

I'm sorry..I'm a liberal..but I'm with the conservatives on this one..

Burn those A-holes..they deserve it...(whether it's a deterrent or not)..

You can throw a million stats in my face..and still cannot convince me why a disgusting child killer or any comparable piece of scum deserves to take another breath on this planet....

[fquaye14ten]

I'm sorry..I'm a liberal..but I'm with the conservatives on this one..

Burn those A-holes..they deserve it...(whether it's a deterrent or not)..

You can throw a million stats in my face..and still cannot convince me why a disgusting child killer or any comparable piece of scum deserves to take another breath on this planet....

they shouldn't be killed for the same reason oj simpson is not in jail:

because the justice system is irreparably flawed.

until the system is perfect, this flawed system should not have the power to decide whether a man lives or dies

[chisoxtony]

Oh ..I agree..I'm not sure we should enact the Death Penalty with all the flaws in the system..

I'm just saying that I think that there are definitely people who deserve it...(finding the right people when a crime is committed is the problem..esp. with a jury and wrong evidence)..

But if I knew someone was definitely guilty and harmed, terrorized and murdered a child..I wouldn't have a single qualm about sentencing that person to death. Actually...I'd think that not punishing that individual severely is like spitting in the face of the surviving family...

[fquaye14ten]

i would tend to agree that certain crimes quote/unquote deserve the death penalty. i wouldn't cry for any terrorist, child killer, or torturer who was killed...

the problem is who decides that they should die? well...in effect we all do, so the blood is on our hands and that's not something i'm willing to accept

[Pick a name, Buddy]

I used to be totally pro-death penalty. But then I heard Dennis Miller's take on it and did a complete reversal. His position is that you cannot be anti-abortion and then on the other hand be pro-death penalty, because you are valuing one life over another, which is not our place, but God's.

So, I no longer support the death penalty. I'm sure my argument will be very persuasive in the penalty phase of my murder trial...

[Palehose13]

It seems to me, if you really had it in your mind to kill somebody, you're going to do it.

I agree. If you are going to kill, it is in the heat of the moment or it is calculated and the person believes that he/she will not get caught.

I'm with what Deuce said in the first post, I don't trust the legal system enough. No death penalty.

[Prope]

I agree. If you are going to kill, it is in the heat of the moment or it is calculated and the person believes that he/she will not get caught.

I'm with what Deuce said in the first post, I don't trust the legal system enough. No death penalty.
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/07/180px-Joebirkett.jpg
"Rolando Cruz is guilty. GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! Fry 'em."

Nearly seven years after Rolando Cruz was acquitted of the rape and murder of Jeanine Nicarico, and 17 years after Brian Dugan confessed to the crime and gave details only the killer could know, Joe Birkett still has not charged Dugan. Birkett's critics say that's because charging Dugan would mean admitting he was wrong about Cruz.
Yeah...

[maurice]

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/0/07/180px-Joebirkett.jpg
"Rolando Cruz is guilty. GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! Fry 'em."

The douchebag and Jim Ryan still feel that way.

The scary thing about the Cruz case is that his conviction and sentence were upheld numerous times before the truth came out. Reading those old cases is terrifying to anybody who gives a shit.

[Prope]

The douchebag and Jim Ryan still feel that way.

The scary thing about the Cruz case is that his conviction and sentence were upheld numerous times before the truth came out. Reading those old cases is terrifying to anybody who gives a shit.
Which should, ya know, be EVERYBODY!!!!!!

[soxwon]

2 years later, we find out that somebody else did it
America shows its stupidity


i would only give the death penalty is overwhelming evidence.
Circumstantial no- Jail time only then.


or if the wrong person gets the death penalty
give his family a million bucks
Then fry the person who did it.
A million bucks- is plenty to stop greaving.

[maurice]

i would only give the death penalty is overwhelming evidence.
Circumstantial no- Jail time only then.

Does an uncorroborated confession count as "overwhelming evidence"?

[Palehose13]

Does an uncorroborated confession count as "overwhelming evidence"?

Of course! Confessions are always real!!!

[maurice]

...unless they're tortured out of you by Burge & co., resulting in numerous false convictions.

[Palehose13]

...unless they're tortured out of you by Burge & co., resulting in numerous false convictions.

What could you possibly be talking about? No one is tortured in America!

[maurice]

Sorry, I forgot. They used "coercive interrogation techniques" and "stress positions" to produce valuable and reliable intelligence.

Better?

[StockdaleforVeep]

there's no justification to be found for the death penalty... Anywhere. Especially in this country...
People need to stop

Right because in civilized countries, people dont shoot others over not getting enough condiments with fast food dont they?

Its a disgrace to the memory of the dead that someone can murder someone in the act of a crime and still remain alive and unremorseful

I am an advocate of public executions, specif hangings

as for the confession talk, isnt a fact that torture does not even work for information gathering?

[chisoxtony]

Right because in civilized countries, people dont shoot others over not getting enough condiments with fast food dont they?

Its a disgrace to the memory of the dead that someone can murder someone in the act of a crime and still remain alive and unremorseful

I am an advocate of public executions, specif hangings

as for the confession talk, isnt a fact that torture does not even work for information gathering?


wow ! we're on the same side of an issue..

Much as conservatives/Republicans deserve to be a minority until they get out of the 1950's...liberals also deserve to be a minority until they start showing a little more compassion for victims and their families instead of criminals.

It amazes me how much sympathy is out there for rapists, murderers and child killers..but to the families of the victims..the left gives out a big F-YOU !

and these people are supposed to be more compassionate than conservatives..but conservatives and liberals are screwed up in thier thinking in so many ways..that's why neither will ever dominate American politics...

[CaptainBallz]

Right because in civilized countries, people dont shoot others over not getting enough condiments with fast food dont they?

Its a disgrace to the memory of the dead that someone can murder someone in the act of a crime and still remain alive and unremorseful

I am an advocate of public executions, specif hangings


But then again, you have the moral compass of a bipolar hyena.

The point of the matter is that the conduct of a society at large should be at a higher rational level than the conduct of its basest members. I know this bothers you as one of our basest members that your idea of revenge would not be satisfied with a punishment system based on the revocation of basic rights and *gasp* attempting to "correct" those members of society that are so badly broken.
It is no big secret that a majority of homicides are directly related to poverty, drugs, and mental illness to the point where the path of cause and effect are pretty clear. I'm not saying that this absolves the perpetrators of responsibility for their actions, but it is rather clear that pretending to remedy the situation or even honor "the memory of the dead" by simply taking wrathful state-sponsored action upon them is pure barbarism plain and simple.. and by barbarism I mean retardation.

You highlight this fact with your primal desire to actually witness a public hanging, for what would appear to be no other reason than the fact that your mother didn't hold you enough.
Grow up, stockdale.

[maurice]

as for the confession talk, isnt a fact that torture does not even work for information gathering?

:fact:

[fquaye14ten]

you torture this guy long enough he'll tell you started the goddamned chicago fire but that does not necessarily make it fucking true


rip chris penn

[Palehose13]

Sorry, I forgot. They used "coercive interrogation techniques" and "stress positions" to produce valuable and reliable intelligence.

Better?

I didn't think that I needed to use teal for both posts!

wow ! we're on the same side of an issue..

Much as conservatives/Republicans deserve to be a minority until they get out of the 1950's...liberals also deserve to be a minority until they start showing a little more compassion for victims and their families instead of criminals.

It amazes me how much sympathy is out there for rapists, murderers and child killers..but to the families of the victims..the left gives out a big F-YOU !

and these people are supposed to be more compassionate than conservatives..but conservatives and liberals are screwed up in thier thinking in so many ways..that's why neither will ever dominate American politics...

I don't think that getting rid of the death penalty is showing more compassion to the criminals than the victims. I definitely believe that criminals need to be punished and punished appropriately. However, because of human error in our justice system we can rarely be 100% absolutely sure that the person is guilty of the crime. I think that life in prison is definitely a harsh and appropriate punishment. Make those fuckers think about what they did every fucking day of their life.

So please, stop think that liberals are more compassionate toward criminals than victims.

[maurice]

I didn't think that I needed to use teal for both posts!

You didn't. I was taking a shot at W, not you.

Have a nice weekend.

[Palehose13]

You didn't. I was taking a shot at W, not you.

Have a nice weekend.

oooooooh. :o

You too! :hello:

[Prope]

Here is a list of countries that still have the death penalty, and have put people to death since I and Stockdale have been born. The US not included...

Cuba
Iran
North Korea
Sudan
Syria

You know what else those five countries have in common? They are on the list of countries our government has identified with state-sponsored terrorism.

I'm so glad we are in the same company as those five.

Poland, a country Stockdale mentions because he is of that ancestry, outlawed it in 1997. Surely, if the Poles can get away from the death penalty, the U.S. can.

[Deuce]

You didn't. I was taking a shot at W, not you.

Have a nice weekend.

oooooooh. :o

You too! :hello:

:cheers:

http://www.legendarytv.com/the_a-team/images/George_Peppard_hannibal_2.jpg

"I love it when a plan comes together."

[StockdaleforVeep]

wow ! we're on the same side of an issue..

Much as conservatives/Republicans deserve to be a minority until they get out of the 1950's...liberals also deserve to be a minority until they start showing a little more compassion for victims and their families instead of criminals.

It amazes me how much sympathy is out there for rapists, murderers and child killers..but to the families of the victims..the left gives out a big F-YOU !

and these people are supposed to be more compassionate than conservatives..but conservatives and liberals are screwed up in thier thinking in so many ways..that's why neither will ever dominate American politics...

im surprised the aclu isnt fighting more to get lifers out of prison, ya know cuz thats "cruel"

But then again, you have the moral compass of a bipolar hyena.

The point of the matter is that the conduct of a society at large should be at a higher rational level than the conduct of its basest members. I know this bothers you as one of our basest members that your idea of revenge would not be satisfied with a punishment system based on the revocation of basic rights and *gasp* attempting to "correct" those members of society that are so badly broken.
It is no big secret that a majority of homicides are directly related to poverty, drugs, and mental illness to the point where the path of cause and effect are pretty clear. I'm not saying that this absolves the perpetrators of responsibility for their actions, but it is rather clear that pretending to remedy the situation or even honor "the memory of the dead" by simply taking wrathful state-sponsored action upon them is pure barbarism plain and simple.. and by barbarism I mean retardation.

You highlight this fact with your primal desire to actually witness a public hanging, for what would appear to be no other reason than the fact that your mother didn't hold you enough.
Grow up, stockdale.


I have no desire to see something as brutal as hanging.
But if people saw what your horrific end would be, it would deter crime. Hell, you can be a homicidal maniac, and you get to peacefully fall asleep thru lethal injection after enjoying a good blissful meal

[Prope]

But if people saw what your horrific end would be, it would deter crime.
Bullshit. People will still kill people. Tennessee still has the death penalty and somebody posted a story about a white couple that was killed recently. Didn't their murderers know what would happen to them?

By the way, the U.S. was sixth in the world in executions in 2006. The top 5 went..
1. China
2. Iran
3. Pakistan
4. Iraq
5. Sudan

Again I ask, WHY THE FUCK DO WE WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE COUNTRIES????

[StockdaleforVeep]

Bullshit. People will still kill people. Tennessee still has the death penalty and somebody posted a story about a white couple that was killed recently. Didn't their murderers know what would happen to them?

By the way, the U.S. was sixth in the world in executions in 2006. The top 5 went..
1. China
2. Iran
3. Pakistan
4. Iraq
5. Sudan

Again I ask, WHY THE FUCK DO WE WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE COUNTRIES????

they dont have as comprehensive laws as us. With them, they execute for feeble crimes

You are trying to merge death penalty with the war on terror discussion which are two diff things and should not even be a topic here

[SABRSox]

No he's not, Stockdale. He's talking about human rights violators.

[StockdaleforVeep]

I used to be totally pro-death penalty. But then I heard Dennis Miller's take on it and did a complete reversal. His position is that you cannot be anti-abortion and then on the other hand be pro-death penalty, because you are valuing one life over another, which is not our place, but God's.

So, I no longer support the death penalty. I'm sure my argument will be very persuasive in the penalty phase of my murder trial...

What did a fetus do to be terminated? The difference is you choose to murder

No he's not, Stockdale. He's talking about human rights violators.


Here is a list of countries that still have the death penalty, and have put people to death since I and Stockdale have been born. The US not included...

Cuba
Iran
North Korea
Sudan
Syria

You know what else those five countries have in common? They are on the list of countries our government has identified with state-sponsored terrorism. .

Not discussing human rights there

[Prope]

they dont have as comprehensive laws as us. With them, they execute for feeble crimes

You are trying to merge death penalty with the war on terror discussion which are two diff things and should not even be a topic here

No he's not, Stockdale. He's talking about human rights violators.
Actually SABR, he is right. I am not talking about how the countries I have listed have a long history of violating human rights. Though I suppose how we are also lumped in with other human violators is another issue.

Rather, Stockdale, I am referring to the fact that our own government does not support the governments of those countries I listed (I suppose you could take Iraq off there, but then again when we finally leave there and the puppet government we installed is overthrown we'll go right back to having them on the list), and as a matter of fact our government does everything they can to show how we are the exact opposite of those countries I listed.

Yet even though we talk about our freedoms, and talk about their oppressive governments we still share similar policies that they do. Now, if you are alright with that, that's fine. I'd only ask, the next time you espouse on how bad Cuba, N. Korea, or Iran is, that you remember those countries punish criminals exactly the way we do in this country.

How we can still have the death penalty in this country, yet claim morality and right and justice is absolutely appalling to me. If you can't see the similarities then I question any logic you may have in that brain of yours.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Actually SABR, he is right. I am not talking about how the countries I have listed have a long history of violating human rights. Though I suppose how we are also lumped in with other human violators is another issue.

Rather, Stockdale, I am referring to the fact that our own government does not support the governments of those countries I listed (I suppose you could take Iraq off there, but then again when we finally leave there and the puppet government we installed is overthrown we'll go right back to having them on the list), and as a matter of fact our government does everything they can to show how we are the exact opposite of those countries I listed.

Yet even though we talk about our freedoms, and talk about their oppressive governments we still share similar policies that they do. Now, if you are alright with that, that's fine. I'd only ask, the next time you espouse on how bad Cuba, N. Korea, or Iran is, that you remember those countries punish criminals exactly the way we do in this country.

How we can still have the death penalty in this country, yet claim morality and right and justice is absolutely appalling to me. If you can't see the similarities then I question any logic you may have in that brain of yours.



and we are opposite, those who are sentenced to die are judged by a jury of their peers, not by the dictator of said country or law system that is crooked. Do they even have life sentences for prisoners in those countries? I dont know and am curious,id also be curious of the crime rates in those nations and its population density per capita vs the US

[fquaye14ten]

Poland, a country Stockdale mentions because he is of that ancestry, outlawed it in 1997. Surely, if the Poles can get away from the death penalty, the U.S. can.

they thought it was the "deaf" penalty and they were sick and tired of yelling at people

[Prope]

they thought it was the "deaf" penalty and they were sick and tired of yelling at people
Quaye wins the interweb.