The Myth of Secular Moral Chaos

[Erik The Red]

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=sharris_26_3

A rather fetching read.

[fquaye14ten]

hypotheticals all of them

[Erik The Red]

hypotheticals all of them
No more hypothetical than, say, a supernatural being flipping a switch.

[Sir Realist]

That's an incredibly shallow article. Every one of the countries listed as being the most atheistic of societies has ancient religious myths at the root of their ethos. That shit cannot be extracted.

Guess why nudity is still considered pretty much a no no on American TV while it's no big deal in other Western cultures. It's because we're still influenced by the ethos of the English Puritans that came over here and founded our society even though I've never even met one.

Also, his interpretation of the New Testament is just plain wrong. This literal interpretation of scripture that many Protestants and atheists practice is gravely in error and is really starting to get old.

[fquaye14ten]

No more hypothetical than, say, a supernatural being flipping a switch.

exactly. i just meant both sides are hypothetical

[fquaye14ten]

Guess why nudity is still considered pretty much a no no on American TV while it's no big deal in other Western cultures. It's because we're still influenced by the ethos of the English Puritans that came over here and founded our society even though I've never even met one.

that's an oversimplified explanation :shrug:

[fquaye14ten]

Also, his interpretation of the New Testament is just plain wrong. This literal interpretation of scripture that many Protestants and atheists practice is gravely in error and is really starting to get old.

how do you extricate it though? you bring the human element in.

oops.

the debate is not over your definition of christianity. you seem to be at peace with that. your issue that you have continually brought up is that secularism precludes morality.

thus the corrollary argument would be that only through religious and spiritual establishment can morality be achieved. bzzt. you can't pick and choose a very small sect (in your case, a sect of one) at the expense of "atheists, jews, and many protestants"...not to mention the bizarre muslim sects that seem to be a constant headache.

while this article is largely hypothetical and propositional, it makes a strong case that the idea that morality is subjective and only the unifying principles of a deity can reign it in to a "good" morality is a suspect one and a weak crutch of an argument leaned on by those too weak-minded to justify their faith either with real logic or on the fact that "faith is faith" and if people don't agree it's their prerogative.

clearly, realist, you fall into that category :shrug:

[fquaye14ten]

This article sucks. That is all.

if by sucks you mean "doesn't have bright lights and shiny colors" you're right.

if by sucks you mean is too speculative and abstract to have any real foundation you would also be right

i don't think it sucks, but it could have been a lot more sound if the claims weren't so broad

[1951Campbell]

It's because we're still influenced by the ethos of the English Puritans that came over here and founded our society even though I've never even met one.


Ha, clearly you've never lived in New England.

[Palehose13]

That's an incredibly shallow article. Every one of the countries listed as being the most atheistic of societies has ancient religious myths at the root of their ethos. That shit cannot be extracted.


Why is it that anything secular is automatically labeled by you as shallow?

[1951Campbell]

That's pretty much the root of it. America is still pretty prudish and hung up about sex and it all stems from the Puritans.

And booze. And it is fair to lay that at the feet of the Puritans and Protestants in general.

[fquaye14ten]

That's pretty much the root of it. America is still pretty prudish and hung up about sex and it all stems from the Puritans.

thanks professor zoso... :rolleyes:

[fquaye14ten]

and professor campbell :rolleyes:

[fquaye14ten]

Why is it that anything secular is automatically labeled by you as shallow?

why do you think? it's easier than actually evaluating things logically

...the hallmark of christianity

[fquaye14ten]

i wanted to try being a reductionist asshole like zoso and campbell

[fquaye14ten]

jews are responsible for terrorism!

slavery is responsible for crime!

hitler flunking out of art school is responsible for the holocaust!

it's easy to make stupid statements, and it's kind of fun

[1951Campbell]

and professor campbell :rolleyes:

How do I know you're being a :jagoff: ?

1. It's June 5th.
2. It's June 5th.
3. It's June 5th.
4. And it's June 5th.

:D

Seriously, experience tells me where you find a lot of Catholics, you find lax liquor laws.

But go on, O wise one...

[1951Campbell]

i wanted to try being a reductionist asshole like zoso and campbell

Well, since you've mastered being a garden-variety asshole, I guess there's nowhere to go but up. ;)

[Palehose13]

why do you think? it's easier than actually evaluating things logically

...the hallmark of christianity

I thought as much.

jews are responsible for terrorism!

slavery is responsible for crime!

hitler flunking out of art school is responsible for the holocaust!

it's easy to make stupid statements, and it's kind of fun

What are the Muslims responsible for?

[Sir Realist]

Why is it that anything secular is automatically labeled by you as shallow?

It's not. Just the shallow stuff is. :)

[Sir Realist]

What are the Muslims responsible for?

Bringing the marriage of a theocracy and fascism to an art form.

[Sir Realist]

why do you think? it's easier than actually evaluating things logically

...the hallmark of christianity

Very funny. :)

[fquaye14ten]

How do I know you're being a :jagoff: ?

1. It's June 5th.
2. It's June 5th.
3. It's June 5th.
4. And it's June 5th.

:D

Seriously, experience tells me where you find a lot of Catholics, you find lax liquor laws.

But go on, O wise one...

counterexample: South Bend Indiana.

But go on, homeboy. It's June 5th and I feel like "Being an asshole"

[fquaye14ten]

Well, since you've mastered being a garden-variety asshole, I guess there's nowhere to go but up. ;)

when you have zoso on your side in an scholarly argument, you know you're in trouble

[Deuce]

And booze. And it is fair to lay that at the feet of the Puritans and Protestants in general.

Not entirely true. The colonist drank more beer on a daily basis than modern Americans. You see, Europeans brewed beer because it was a great way to purify water (getting wasted was just a bonus). It was a practice that continued for a long time in America, even though the water here was not as polluted (at least, not at first). Colonist drank beer all day, instead of water. Men, women, adolescents... even babies drank beer.

Article on Beer and the Colonies (http://www.beerhistory.com/library/holdings/greggsmith1.shtml)

No, the fault for prohibition in the US falls on the feet of "pietistic" Protestant denominations, especially the Methodists, Northern Baptists, Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, Disciples, Congregationalists, Quakers, and Scandinavian Lutherans.

Yet another reason I am glad to be a Catholic. :cool:

Deuce

[Sir Realist]

Every one of the countries listed as being the most atheistic of societies has ancient religious myths at the root of their ethos. That shit cannot be extracted.

This statement needs to be addressed.

BTW, PH13... the reason I consider the article to be shallow is because the article completely skirts past this issue. If you had read the rest of that post, you would have seen these two sentences, and you wouldn't have had to ask why I thought the article was shallow. ;)

[Prope]

No, the fault for prohibition in the US falls on the feet of "pietistic" Protestant denominations, especially the Methodists, Northern Baptists, Southern Baptists, Presbyterians, Disciples, Congregationalists, Quakers, and Scandinavian Lutherans.

Yet another reason I am glad to be a Catholic. :cool:

Deuce
I'm a Scandinavian Lutheran and trust me, it wasn't my family members who were involved in that.

[Prope]

Every one of the countries listed as being the most atheistic of societies has ancient religious myths at the root of their ethos. That shit cannot be extracted.

This statement needs to be addressed.
Since I only imagine this is the reason why it needs to be addressed; yes Realist, you are right. Every one of the countries listed as being the most atheistic of societies has ancient religious myths at the roots of their ethos.

[fquaye14ten]

How do you figure? I'm more well-read than 99% of this board.

and i'm the 1%

[fquaye14ten]

This statement needs to be addressed.

BTW, PH13... the reason I consider the article to be shallow is because the article completely skirts past this issue. If you had read the rest of that post, you would have seen these two sentences, and you wouldn't have had to ask why I thought the article was shallow. ;)

roundabout argument. congrats.

that's why all of this is hypothetical, but the burden of proof is on you, the one making the claim.

and "it's always been that way and i think THIS is what THAT means" doesn't count as proof

[Prope]

Since I only imagine this is the reason why it needs to be addressed; yes Realist, you are right. Every one of the countries listed as being the most atheistic of societies has ancient religious myths at the roots of their ethos.


and "it's always been that way and i think THIS is what THAT means" doesn't count as proof
Exactly. To the point that yes, most countries still have 'ancient religious myths at the roots of their ethos,' I imagine that those practices are only done by less than 10% of the population - the conservatives. Also, in terms of Norway, Sweden, and Finland I'd imagine it is more done in the northern parts of those countries, where those areas have some autonomy.

Hell, in Ancient Rome when families would have meetings they would include relatives who have died. They'd make plaster busts of them and they would get a vote. That was a highly pagan ritual that I don't think it practiced anymore, anywhere. Least of which Rome.

[fquaye14ten]

speaking of swedish metal bands......

notice how satanism can't exist without christianity.....

just saying.....mayhem dude ate other dude's brain cuz he was worried that the guy's reputation for "evil" was surpassing his own

[Palehose13]

This statement needs to be addressed.

BTW, PH13... the reason I consider the article to be shallow is because the article completely skirts past this issue. If you had read the rest of that post, you would have seen these two sentences, and you wouldn't have had to ask why I thought the article was shallow. ;)

I did read your entire post and it seems to me that you label most things that question or deny religion or a higher power are "shallow". You have also made some rather pointed statements in the past about people who haven't had your religious experience. It seems to me that you have the same closed mindedness that you accuse others on the other side of having and are either incapable or unwilling to have a real conversation about the subject.

[fquaye14ten]

he is st00p1d that's all

[Erik The Red]

speaking of swedish metal bands......

notice how satanism can't exist without christianity.....

just saying.....mayhem dude ate other dude's brain cuz he was worried that the guy's reputation for "evil" was surpassing his own

Mayhem is from Norway. Oslo, if memory serves. And I don't know that Euronymous was jealous of Dead's "evilness"... the dude committed suicide by stabbing himself and then shooting himself in the head with a shotgun. That's more e-mo than e-vil. :D

[fquaye14ten]

my bad :shrug:

...didn't one of them kill the other one because his evilness rep was being eclipsed?

[Erik The Red]

my bad :shrug:

...didn't one of them kill the other one because his evilness rep was being eclipsed?

You're probably thinking of Varg Vikernes of Burzum (also from Norway). He stabbed Euronymous (the one who ate his fellow band member's brain) like 20 times. Scenesters like to say that Varg killed Euronymous for any one of a number of reasons (like wanting to prove he was more evil), probably because it sounds cooler, but the reality is that Euronymous was most likely killed over money that Varg said was owed to him.

:knowledge:

[Dan Mega]

Erik, what exactly happened to the lead singer of that metal (and hi-larious) band Anal Cunt? I figured you may know.

[Erik The Red]

Erik, what exactly happened to the lead singer of that metal (and hi-larious) band Anal Cunt? I figured you may know.

Seth Putnam. He OD'ed a few years ago and went into a coma for a while. Fucked him up pretty good, he almost died. But I hear they're working on a new album now so he must've recovered pretty well. I honestly don't follow them much, though.

[Prope]

Seth Putnam. He OD'ed a few years ago and went into a coma for a while. Fucked him up pretty good, he almost died. But I hear they're working on a new album now so he must've recovered pretty well. I honestly don't follow them much, though.
My Swedish grandfather rocks out to Anal Cunt. :rock:

[Erik The Red]

My Swedish grandfather rocks out to Anal Cunt. :rock:
Your grandfather must be a pretty cool dude.

[Prope]

Your grandfather must be a pretty cool dude.
Oh hey, speaking of Sweden. I had the opportunity to cook up some Swedish cuisine for a diversity dinner at the school I work at. Do you agree that the reason most Swedes are skinny is because nobody can stand the cuisine?

[Prope]

If their best creation is the meatball then I'd venture to guess they're not a cooking bunch. Although Swedish meatballs do kick ass.
Have you ever sprayed hairspray into your mouth? If so, you might like Glogg. (http://www.ling.su.se/staff/evali/glogg.htm) (pronounced Glug)

[fquaye14ten]

Stick to what you know emo kid.

:shrug:

i still know more than you about pretty much everything

[Prope]

Have you ever sprayed hairspray into your mouth? If so, you might like Glogg. (http://www.ling.su.se/staff/evali/glogg.htm) (pronounced Glug).
Actually, this isn't the best recipe out there. I've seen it made with port wine, brandy, and grain alcohol. Either way, it gets you fucked.

Swedish Moonshine.

[Erik The Red]

Oh hey, speaking of Sweden. I had the opportunity to cook up some Swedish cuisine for a diversity dinner at the school I work at. Do you agree that the reason most Swedes are skinny is because nobody can stand the cuisine?

Hahaha, I haven't had a lot of their cuisine, but I heard it's notoriously bad. My dad's side is 100% Swede.

Have you ever sprayed hairspray into your mouth? If so, you might like Glogg. (http://www.ling.su.se/staff/evali/glogg.htm) (pronounced Glug)

My great-uncle used to make a damn fine glogg.

[Prope]

Hahaha, I haven't had a lot of their cuisine, but I heard it's notoriously bad. My dad's side is 100% Swede.
It's actually mostly fish. Herring especially, which I think you can substitute by eating a whole salt shaker. Odd meats. Dumplings as well. Deserts are basically anything you can put raspberries and blue berries in.

[Erik The Red]

:shrug:

i still know more than you about pretty much everything

Still though... in this case:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c158/palehose/forumtags/wongiswrong.gif

[Longshot7]

Hahaha, I haven't had a lot of their cuisine, but I heard it's notoriously bad. My dad's side is 100% Swede.


That's not true AT ALL. Sure on the con side you have lutefisk, but I went there a couple years back and all the home-cooked food was TERRIFIC. Meatballs, dumplings, coffee cakes, sausages- all fucking amazing.

Swedish fast food on the other hand? Vomit tastes better.

[fquaye14ten]

I'm also better looking.

false.

i am not photogenic.