2008 Pre-Election Election

[Unreal!]

Who would you vote for if you voted today?

[Unreal!]

It's gotta be McCain. Can any of you honestly say that any of these other candidates would be a better Commander-In-Chief?

[Palehose13]

It's gotta be McCain. Can any of you honestly say that any of these other candidates would be a better Commander-In-Chief?

Republicans suck.

[CaptainBallz]

It's gotta be McCain. Can any of you honestly say that any of these other candidates would be a better Commander-In-Chief?

Yes, actually. McCain is a double-talking, christian-right cock-and-ball sucking, war-escalating babboon that managed to squander every last ounce of credibility he had over the last four years.

Where's the public poll, yo?

[samram]

Yes, actually. McCain is a double-talking, christian-right cock-and-ball sucking, war-escalating babboon that managed to squander every last ounce of credibility he had over the last four years.

Where's the public poll, yo?

McCain sucks at politics.

Anyway, I vote other.

Oh, and Vilsack's out.

[Prope]

I put Obama, because if you are from Illinois you have to.

I'm still holding out hope for Mark Warner and Bill Richardson. Of those two, I'm not sure - it would depend on their education policy.

[Palehose13]

Wilkes? He waffles more than John Kerry.

[Myrtle]

I put Obama, because if you are from Illinois you have to.

I'm still holding out hope for Mark Warner and Bill Richardson. Of those two, I'm not sure - it would depend on their education policy.

I picked Obama... but I don't think him being from Illinois is a good reason to vote for him. That's like... saying you'll vote for Clinton just because she's a woman, or you'll vote for Giuliani because he was there for September 11th... I like Obama because of his policies regarding the Iraq war, because of his focus on fuel efficient cars and oil conservation, because of his focus on low-income workers and families and the fact that the shelter I currently work at and the clients I work with would significantly benefit from some of the low-income worker policies he plans on promoting.

[the fluffer]

any of you Obama supporters subscribe to B.O. magazine?

[Prope]

any of you Obama supporters subscribe to B.O. magazine?
I call it the Sun-Times.

[Prope]

I picked Obama... but I don't think him being from Illinois is a good reason to vote for him. That's like... saying you'll vote for Clinton just because she's a woman, or you'll vote for Giuliani because he was there for September 11th... I like Obama because of his policies regarding the Iraq war, because of his focus on fuel efficient cars and oil conservation, because of his focus on low-income workers and families and the fact that the shelter I currently work at and the clients I work with would significantly benefit from some of the low-income worker policies he plans on promoting.
Perhaps the ATC should make an appearance here. I just made that comment because if you read either of Chicago's newspapers they would condemn you if you did not vote for him.

All things you mentioned would be reasons that I would vote for him, but I like Richardson and Warner just the same (I imagine you have more info on Mark Warner than most). I wouldn't mind seeing either a Richardson/Obama or Warner/Obama ticket.

[Sir Realist]

It's gotta be McCain. Can any of you honestly say that any of these other candidates would be a better Commander-In-Chief?

McCain sucks KLA terrorist cock.

Fuck McCain (http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j022500.html)

[Palehose13]

McCain sucks KLA terrorist cock.

Fuck McCain (http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j022500.html)

*sigh* Everything is not about Kosovo. Like most people care about some ass backwards province in Eastern Europe. ;)

[StockdaleforVeep]

I put Obama, because if you are from Illinois you have to.



surely u jest and forgot teal

[Prope]

surely u jest and forgot teal

::sighs::

[StockdaleforVeep]

I picked Obama... but I don't think him being from Illinois is a good reason to vote for him. That's like... saying you'll vote for Clinton just because she's a woman, or you'll vote for Giuliani because he was there for September 11th... I like Obama because of his policies regarding the Iraq war, because of his focus on fuel efficient cars and oil conservation, because of his focus on low-income workers and families and the fact that the shelter I currently work at and the clients I work with would significantly benefit from some of the low-income worker policies he plans on promoting.

Obama is against social darwinism, most rational living creatures would disagree

Anyone can say what they want to do, obama can say all he wants about withdrawin troops, doesnt mean he will. Every president during vietnam said during the campaigning that theyd bring troops back, and one of their first orders was to send more. Even the fabled and oddly "glorified" JFK

Obama seems to be very conservative with his workings with churches so far, how hypocritical for a liberal to be encouraging church and state

[Sir Realist]

*sigh* Everything is not about Kosovo. Like most people care about some ass backwards province in Eastern Europe. ;)

Atta girl! Keep your head up your ass. I hear lesbians and women in general have it made in the shade in Islamic countries. An independent Kosovo would be a great place for you and your girlfriend to vacation. :rolleyes:

[StockdaleforVeep]

McCain sucks KLA terrorist cock.

Fuck McCain (http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j022500.html)



If my future wife was attacked and my unborn child was murdered, i would want the prag to be tried for murder, not simply battery

http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm

and as for the issue of gay rights, he puts it perfectly. Let the states decide

[Palehose13]

Atta girl! Keep your head up your ass. I hear lesbians and women in general have it made in the shade in Islamic countries. An independent Kosovo would be a great place for you and your girlfriend to vacation. :rolleyes:

Sweet. I'm getting on that right away. Do you have a number for a travel agent?

[Palehose13]

If my future wife was attacked and my unborn child was murdered, i would want the prag to be tried for murder, not simply battery

http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm

and as for the issue of gay rights, he puts it perfectly. Let the states decide

I would hope that any unborn child of yours would be instantly aborted.

[StockdaleforVeep]

I would hope that any unborn child of yours would be instantly aborted.

Least i can have one without a turkey baster and jerkin off some hobo

[Myrtle]

Least i can have one without a turkey baster and jerkin off some hobo

The great thing about this site is that I can actually put you on ignore. But... I won't because you amuse me. :thumbsup:

[StockdaleforVeep]

The great thing about this site is that I can actually put you on ignore. But... I won't because you amuse me. :thumbsup:


You keep flirting with me in these public forums :o

[Myrtle]

Perhaps the ATC should make an appearance here. I just made that comment because if you read either of Chicago's newspapers they would condemn you if you did not vote for him.

All things you mentioned would be reasons that I would vote for him, but I like Richardson and Warner just the same (I imagine you have more info on Mark Warner than most). I wouldn't mind seeing either a Richardson/Obama or Warner/Obama ticket.

Yeah, I agree, I like Warner and would like to see an Warner/Obama ticket, but I honestly don't know all THAT much about him because I'm registered to vote in Illinois... so, paying attention to Virginia politics kind of irkes me when I can't even vote.

I get what you mean about the Chicago newspapers, I would imagine a lot of people in Chicago will vote for Obama for that reason.

[Myrtle]

You keep flirting with me in these public forums :o

I just can't hide my love away. :rolleyes:

[Prope]

I don't understand this...

Abortion OK if raped; and no testing for rape. (Jan 2000)

[StockdaleforVeep]

Yeah, I agree, I like Warner and would like to see an Warner/Obama ticket, but I honestly don't know all THAT much about him because I'm registered to vote in Illinois... so, paying attention to Virginia politics kind of irkes me when I can't even vote.

I get what you mean about the Chicago newspapers, I would imagine a lot of people in Chicago will vote for Obama for that reason.

It should be noted anyway that how can anyone as of now vote for anyone? NO ONE has stated any real policy as of yet. As of now its "america needs help, send troops\bring troops home" etc etc

Untill any policy is stated and promised, my vote will go anywhere. I mean hell, just throwing out an extreme point that wont happen, obama could be a white hating racist and want to only help black people with no interest in white people. He could be that way, but we wont know till the primaries and debates

[StockdaleforVeep]

I don't understand this...


Abortion OK if raped; and no testing for rape
McCain was asked whether he would reinstate the Reagan era rule that prevents international family planning clinics that receive federal funds from discussing abortion. “I don’t believe they should advocate abortion with my tax dollars,” McCain said, adding that he opposed abortion except in cases of rape and incest. He was then asked how he would determine whether someone had in fact been raped. McCain responded, “I think that I would give the benefit of the doubt to the person who alleges that.”
Source: New York Times, p. A17 Jan 25, 2000

[Sir Realist]

Abortion OK if raped; and no testing for rape
McCain was asked whether he would reinstate the Reagan era rule that prevents international family planning clinics that receive federal funds from discussing abortion. “I don’t believe they should advocate abortion with my tax dollars,” McCain said, adding that he opposed abortion except in cases of rape and incest. He was then asked how he would determine whether someone had in fact been raped. McCain responded, “I think that I would give the benefit of the doubt to the person who alleges that.”
Source: New York Times, p. A17 Jan 25, 2000

The "abortion is a crime except in cases of rape or incest" is the biggest joke of an argument ever presented.

What this implies is abortion is murder only if the parents of the child are fine upstanding citizens. If one of your parents is a rapist or if your parents were directly related to each other... tough shit. Your life is meaningless and you're gonna be murdered.

McCain is an idiot.

[StockdaleforVeep]

The "abortion is a crime except in cases of rape or incest" is the biggest joke of an argument ever presented.

What this implies is abortion is murder only if the parents of the child are fine upstanding citizens. If one of your parents is a rapist or if your parents were directly related to each other... tough shit. Your life is meaningless and you're gonna be murdered.

McCain is an idiot.


The incest issue is valid because incest is proven to be a cause of birth defects and degenerative issues. Granted not right off the start but its a chipping process, similar to cloning. Abortion should not be a contraceptive. If women dont want babies(unless in forced issues such as the rape\incest cause) then the answer is simple: keep your pussy shut. Yes men are responsible as well, but to use the pro abortion argument "its my body" well dont get pregnant

[Sir Realist]

The incest issue is valid because incest is proven to be a cause of birth defects and degenerative issues.

So, because there is an increased possibility of birth defects and degenerative issues the unborn child can be murdered?

"Sorry, Kid. There's a very small chance that you may be born with birth defects, so we're going to allow you to be killed. We don't feel like rolling the dice when there's a 1 in 30 chance of something being wrong with you. Tough luck, and bye bye."

If the killing of an unborn child is murder. Then it's murder.

[Myrtle]

So, because there is an increased possibility of birth defects and degenerative issues the unborn child can be murdered?

"Sorry, Kid. There's a very small chance that you may be born with birth defects, so we're going to allow you to be killed. We don't feel like rolling the dice when there's a 1 in 30 chance of something being wrong with you. Tough luck, and bye bye."

If the killing of an unborn child is murder. Then it's murder.

Then, of course, there's the whole issue of murder or not... is an unborn child a person? And if so, when does that life begin?

I am not giving my opinions on this issue. :thumbsup:

[maurice]

Being from IL doesn't requrie you to vote for Obama. Heck, he's not even "from IL" but Clinton IS. I'll just say "fuck it" and vote for Edwards again. Then again, by the time we get to vote, the primaries will be decided.
:mad:

The incest issue is valid because incest is proven to be a cause of birth defects and degenerative issues.

It's not valid if you claim that abortion is wrong because a fetus = a fully human person . . . unless you also think that it's okay to murder people who were born with birth defects / degenerative issues.

Therefore, McCain = Hitler. QED.

[SABRSox]

Gore. Now, if only he'd run...

[Sir Realist]

Then, of course, there's the whole issue of murder or not... is an unborn child a person? And if so, when does that life begin?

I am not giving my opinions on this issue. :thumbsup:

I believe life begins at conception, and I also believe a woman's body is hers and only she can decide what she wants to do with it.

Sometimes murder isn't necessarily unlawful. I believe in cases of self-defense and abortion this should be true.

[fquaye14ten]

The "abortion is a crime except in cases of rape or incest" is the biggest joke of an argument ever presented.

What this implies is abortion is murder only if the parents of the child are fine upstanding citizens. If one of your parents is a rapist or if your parents were directly related to each other... tough shit. Your life is meaningless and you're gonna be murdered.

McCain is an idiot.

Except you yourself admit that murder is allowed in certain circumstances....

Therefore, the people making this argument feel like abortion is always murder, but that it should be a crime except in cases of incest and rape.


Hoisted by your own petard, realist, as per use-u-al

[Myrtle]

I believe life begins at conception, and I also believe a woman's body is hers and only she can decide what she wants to do with it.

Sometimes murder isn't necessarily unlawful. I believe in cases of self-defense and abortion this should be true.

Well, we disagree about the life issue, I pretty much believe that it begins at the moment the fetus can exist outside of the mother's body; however, I like where you stand on everything else.

[1951Campbell]

I'd vote Ron Paul.

[Sir Realist]

Except you yourself admit that murder is allowed in certain circumstances....

Therefore, the people making this argument feel like abortion is always murder, but that it should be a crime except in cases of incest and rape.


Hoisted by your own petard, realist, as per use-u-al

Allow me to clarify my position:

I believe the "except in case of incest and rape" anti-abortionists are completely full of shit. If abortion is murder, then it's murder. I don't give a shit what the conditions were that created the conception. It's a living human being. To abort the child is murder.

I believe a woman's body is hers and hers alone. Nobody should have the right to tell her what she can or cannot do with it. Abortion should never be a crime.

Two cases in which in which I believe murder should not be a crime: Self-defense and abortion.

[fquaye14ten]

Allow me to clarify my position:

I believe the "except in case of incest and rape" anti-abortionists are completely full of shit. If abortion is murder, then it's murder. I don't give a shit what the conditions were that created the conception. It's a living human being. To abort the child is murder.

I believe a woman's body is hers and hers alone. Nobody should have the right to tell her what she can or cannot do with it. Abortion should never be a crime.

Two cases in which in which I believe murder should not be a crime: Self-defense and abortion.

So you think we shouldn't forego the death penalty in murders of passion...and treat them the same as cold blooded murder and serial killers?

[Myrtle]

So you think we shouldn't forego the death penalty in murders of passion...and treat them the same as cold blooded murder and serial killers?

The death penalty in itself is a load of shit. If it actually worked the way it was supposed to, then it would be worth arguing about.

[fquaye14ten]

The death penalty in itself is a load of shit. If it actually worked the way it was supposed to, then it would be worth arguing about.

the point is, there are extenuating circumstances in anything

[samram]

I'd vote Ron Paul.

This poll, like most out there, seems to have forgotten he's running.

[1951Campbell]

I picked Obama... but I don't think him being from Illinois is a good reason to vote for him. That's like... saying you'll vote for Clinton just because she's a woman, or you'll vote for Giuliani because he was there for September 11th... I like Obama because of his policies regarding the Iraq war, because of his focus on fuel efficient cars and oil conservation, because of his focus on low-income workers and families and the fact that the shelter I currently work at and the clients I work with would significantly benefit from some of the low-income worker policies he plans on promoting.


I'm amazed you've gleaned all this about Obama. The only three things I can say about him with certainty are that he's black, handsome, and against the war. Although the war thing is nice, um, what else is there?

What exactly are those "low-income worker policies" he speaks of?

[1951Campbell]

This poll, like most out there, seem to have forgotten he's running.


He won the Pajamas Media poll, so they took him off. :jagoff:

[Sir Realist]

Well, we disagree about the life issue, I pretty much believe that it begins at the moment the fetus can exist outside of the mother's body; however, I like where you stand on everything else.

It's really tough for me to watch ultrasound footage of a fetus reacting to its living conditions and not believe that it's alive.

JlUQoYi74nk

[Myrtle]

I'm amazed you've gleaned all this about Obama. The only three things I can say about him with certainty are that he's black, handsome, and against the war. Although the war thing is nice, um, what else is there?

What exactly are those "low-income worker policies" he speaks of?

Quoted from www.barackobama.com

A policy he has already been working on as a senator:


Transitional jobs are a promising way to help chronically unemployed people break into the workplace. This approach places participants into temporary, subsidized wage-paying jobs. It also offers mentoring and social services designed to address work-blocking problems like personal and family conflicts. Once they find entry-level work, low-income workers often are unable to break into middle-class jobs. Bridge programs can help by partnering the federal government with employers and community-based organizations to identify job opportunities, develop customized training programs, and place low-income employees in better jobs. Senator Obama introduced legislation to devote $50 million for transitional and bridge employment programs for hard-to-employ groups like homeless veterans, children aging out of foster care, and people returning to communities after a time in prison.

[samram]

He won the Pajamas Media poll, so they took him off. :jagoff:

Handily, I might add, but god forbid the political dialogue have a voice that doesn't tow the party lines.

[Myrtle]

It's really tough for me to watch ultrasound footage of a fetus reacting to its living conditions and not believe that it's alive.


Regardless of how you feel about it, it just comes down to how you define life. I don't define human life as something that can't exist on it's own without direct nourishment and sustenance from it's mother.

[Sir Realist]

So you think we shouldn't forego the death penalty in murders of passion...and treat them the same as cold blooded murder and serial killers?

I don't believe the state should put anybody to death under any circumstances.

[Palehose13]

Least i can have one without a turkey baster and jerkin off some hobo

That doesn't even make any sense. I can also have a baby without a turkey baster or jerking off some hobo, dumbass.

[1951Campbell]

Quoted from www.barackobama.com

A policy he has already been working on as a senator:

Sounds like mushy social-worker gobbedly-gook to me. He's gonna repeal human nature? We've been trying that for about 70 years, and the "chronically unemployed" I deal with still seem to prefer cashing a check for not working to cashing one for working, or drawing child support, or they prefer to work under the table and keep their bennies--can't fault 'em too much for that, that's just being a rational actor.


To sum up: Obama said "if you vote for me, I'll, like, do stuff, and you can assuage your guilt about poor people without having to, like, do stuff."

Or maybe I'm cynical. ;)

[Palehose13]

Allow me to clarify my position:

I believe the "except in case of incest and rape" anti-abortionists are completely full of shit. If abortion is murder, then it's murder. I don't give a shit what the conditions were that created the conception. It's a living human being. To abort the child is murder.

I believe a woman's body is hers and hers alone. Nobody should have the right to tell her what she can or cannot do with it. Abortion should never be a crime.

Two cases in which in which I believe murder should not be a crime: Self-defense and abortion.
I am with you about the abortion issue, it has to be either yes or no. There is no way you can say "maybe in some cases" and actually be "pro-life".

The death penalty in itself is a load of shit. If it actually worked the way it was supposed to, then it would be worth arguing about.

Agreed. It's useless and ridiculous. Before anyone starts the "What if someone you loved was murdered."
a. Someone was.
b. I hope the fucker rots in prison for life. IMO, life without parole is far worse than the death penalty.

[fquaye14ten]

I don't believe the state should put anybody to death under any circumstances.

except in state sponsored abortion clinics?

[Palehose13]

except in state sponsored abortion clinics?

Sure, kill all the babies.

[Sir Realist]

except in state sponsored abortion clinics?

When did I ever say I supported state sponsored abortion clinics? :confused:

[Sir Realist]

Sure, kill all the babies.

http://a340.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/7/l_6795cd17cbfaee9d28c9e7287156fe03.gif

[Palehose13]

http://a340.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/7/l_6795cd17cbfaee9d28c9e7287156fe03.gif

Well, not the big babies. ;)

[fquaye14ten]

I believe life begins at conception, and I also believe a woman's body is hers and only she can decide what she wants to do with it.

Sometimes murder isn't necessarily unlawful. I believe in cases of self-defense and abortion this should be true.


you say it here. If you support a woman's right to choose, you support public clinics, I have to assume.

Or are you advocating that only privatized clinics (completely free from govt spending) could perform abortion? That seems a pretty rare stance....

[soxwon]

ill predict and say right now.
rudy guliani will be the next president.
after obama, edwards, hillary, tangle
the winner of that will be so battered
that rudy will win fairly easily.

[Sir Realist]

you say it here. If you support a woman's right to choose, you support public clinics, I have to assume.

Or are you advocating that only privatized clinics (completely free from govt spending) could perform abortion? That seems a pretty rare stance....

I don't see how those quotes have anything to do with state sponsored abortion clinics. An abortion would be an elective medical procedure, and I don't think the state should have to pick up the tab on elective medical procedures.

EDIT: I'd be interested to see how much money is spent each year by groups trying to defend the Roe vs. Wade decision. I wonder how far that money would go in supporting privatized clinics.

[fquaye14ten]

I don't see how those quotes have anything to do with state sponsored abortion clinics. An abortion would be an elective medical procedure, and I don't think the state should have to pick up the tab on elective medical procedures.

EDIT: I'd be interested to see how much money is spent each year by groups trying to defend the Roe vs. Wade decision. I wonder how far that money would go in supporting privatized clinics.

The state generally gives money to health care facilities. Moreover, those with govt. assistance will often have the tab picked up. However you look at it, the govt. contributes to abortion

[StockdaleforVeep]

Except you yourself admit that murder is allowed in certain circumstances....

Therefore, the people making this argument feel like abortion is always murder, but that it should be a crime except in cases of incest and rape.


Hoisted by your own petard, realist, as per use-u-al



Kill a person in war yer a hero, kill someone in the heat of passion its murder
Kill a guy on the street for money its murder, kill a guy with the death chair, its justice
assisting someone to die because they are suffering is assisted suicide(which i do agree with)

[StockdaleforVeep]

The death penalty in itself is a load of shit. If it actually worked the way it was supposed to, then it would be worth arguing about.

There are alot of people who commit crimes and are in jail that are not death penalty cases, does this mean we should abolish the criminal justice system because apparently its not working and even though violent crime is decreasing, prison populations increase?

I myself am for public executions. Maybe that would return the deterrence and fear of it if you saw a guys head come off from an improper hanging

[StockdaleforVeep]

Regardless of how you feel about it, it just comes down to how you define life. I don't define human life as something that can't exist on it's own without direct nourishment and sustenance from it's mother.


So people who develop debilitating diseases or after major surgery\car crashes and are Dependant on full life support, they somehow went from living, to non living and yet when\if they recover, they suddenly gain their living status?

Also, for babies who are born premature and need to live in an incubator for months and on life support, does that mean they are not alive because they need help?

I personally refuse to adhere to the argument that the child is not alive till breach, because that is the medical procedure and proceedings for partial birth abortions. If the head comes out, then they cannot conduct the abortion, so hence they need to make sure they suck the brains out while the head is inside

[Efilnikufesin]

It doesn't matter who you vote for..

Candidate A or Candidate b..

cause in the end. WE THE PEOPLE GET SCREWED.

[StockdaleforVeep]

It doesn't matter who you vote for..

Candidate A or Candidate b..

cause in the end. WE THE PEOPLE GET SCREWED.


........i cant pronounce your name, so :thumbsup:

[Chips1]

I'd vote Ron Paul.

Ditto.

Do you read his weekly writings (http://www.house.gov/paul/legis_tst.htm)?

By far and way, my favorite Congressman.

[SABRSox]

ill predict and say right now.
rudy guliani will be the next president.
after obama, edwards, hillary, tangle
the winner of that will be so battered
that rudy will win fairly easily.

Well, I beg to differ. I see Obama, Clinton, and Edwards duking it out, and then, just before the paperwork to run starts needing to be filed in states, Al Gore swoops in and declares. Then all those other Dem hopefuls, who have spent tons of money and have been slinging mud are fucked.

The icing on the cake for Gore is when he wins the Nobel Peace Prize. There's no way Rudy stands a chance against Gore.

[fquaye14ten]

I honestly don't really care who wins but Giuliani really fucking torques me off.

I mean honestly, not him personally (though I think he's a precious ass motherfucker) but this fact that b/c of 9/11 people somehow forgot that before the war he was considered by almost everyone to be a fucking grade-a douchebag.

Granted he handled 9/11 well, and that's no small task, but apparently no one remembers what an asshole he was before that. And that bothers me.

[SABRSox]

I honestly don't really care who wins but Giuliani really fucking torques me off.

I mean honestly, not him personally (though I think he's a precious ass motherfucker) but this fact that b/c of 9/11 people somehow forgot that before the war he was considered by almost everyone to be a fucking grade-a douchebag.

Granted he handled 9/11 well, and that's no small task, but apparently no one remembers what an asshole he was before that. And that bothers me.

Giuliani won't make it past his affairs. Dragging him through the muck is ridiculously easy. The only way he wins is if he's facing Hillary.

[StockdaleforVeep]

I honestly don't really care who wins but Giuliani really fucking torques me off.

I mean honestly, not him personally (though I think he's a precious ass motherfucker) but this fact that b/c of 9/11 people somehow forgot that before the war he was considered by almost everyone to be a fucking grade-a douchebag.

Granted he handled 9/11 well, and that's no small task, but apparently no one remembers what an asshole he was before that. And that bothers me.

http://www.gothamgazette.com/graphics/guiliani/giuliani.jpg
"Hey, i cleaned up the issue of low fat yogurt in my city, BE DAMN APPRECIATIVE YA GAMOOK"

[maurice]

Gore is a bad candidate. If he were a good candidate, he already would be president.

As for the GOP candidates, all the things that independents / moderates like about them are going to kill them in the primaries. A Republican in SC isn't going to vote for a Mormon, the former mayor of NYC, or anybody else who is that "different." That's why McCain spent the last 4 years cozing up to his party's wacko fringe.

[CaptainBallz]

Gore is a bad candidate. If he were a good candidate, he already would be president.



Well, he did win the 2000 election. :shrug:

[Chips1]

Well, he did win the 2000 election. :shrug:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I guess your view of winning the election is skewed.


Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

[fquaye14ten]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I guess your view of winning the election is skewed.

well either way, as lou reed said, "those were different times"

I suspect that Gore would be as viable a candidate as any this year

[Myrtle]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I guess your view of winning the election is skewed.

I think the point is that the whole electoral college idea is lame. If Gore can win the popular vote, he should also win the electoral votes and if there is a discrepancy in this (to some people), it means that there is a serious flaw in the system.

[fquaye14ten]

I think the point is that the whole electoral college idea is lame. If Gore can win the popular vote, he should also win the electoral votes and if there is a discrepancy in this (to some people), it means that there is a serious flaw in the system.

aw jeez not this argument

[Chips1]

well either way, as lou reed said, "those were different times"

I suspect that Gore would be as viable a candidate as any this year

Perhaps, if those around now don't care for "outdated" laws, they can introduce amendments and change it as was done with the passing of the 12th, 20th, and 25th amendments.

Al Gore did not win the election.

[1951Campbell]

well either way, as lou reed said, "those were different times"

I suspect that Gore would be as viable a candidate as any this year

Yes, I find it hard to believe that Gore learned no lessons whatsoever from his campaign in 2000.

[CaptainBallz]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I guess your view of winning the election is skewed.

Thanks, Hancock...

I'm saying Gore won Florida.

[fquaye14ten]

Perhaps, if those around now don't care for "outdated" laws, they can introduce amendments and change it as was done with the passing of the 12th, 20th, and 25th amendments.

Al Gore did not win the election.

i'm not talking about when the constitution was drafted

i'm talking about 2000. If Gore had won in 2004 he probably would have won relatively easy---Kerry was a chump.

[Chips1]

I think the point is that the whole electoral college idea is lame. If Gore can win the popular vote, he should also win the electoral votes and if there is a discrepancy in this (to some people), it means that there is a serious flaw in the system.

Well, if was so flawed and such a horrific ordeal, maybe they should have changed it in 1824, 1876 or 1888.

[SABRSox]

Thanks, Hancock...

I'm saying Gore won Florida.

That would have been proven too had the Supreme Court not wrongly stepped in and put an end to the counting.

[Palehose13]

Well, if was so flawed and such a horrific ordeal, maybe they should have changed it in 1824, 1876 or 1888.

{Insert obligatory eye rolling smilie}

[fquaye14ten]

honestly, can we not talk about the electoral college? it's a completely subjective and tedious topic.

[Palehose13]

honestly, can we not talk about the electoral college? it's a completely subjective and tedious topic.

Baby, you never want to talk about anything. Of course no one is going to change anyone else's mind, but I have a feeling some people have some pent up politics in their system after being repressed for so long.

If you would rather talk about something else, then start the discussion pickle toes. :)

[samram]

Baby, you never want to talk about anything. Of course no one is going to change anyone else's mind, but I have a feeling some people have some pent up politics in their system after being repressed for so long.

If you would rather talk about something else, then start the discussion pickle toes. :)

Right. Plus, what else is politics if not subjective and tedious? :D

[fquaye14ten]

let's talk about whether McCain is obsequious or principled.

I tend to like McCain. Thoughts?

[fquaye14ten]

Right. Plus, what else is politics if not subjective and tedious? :D

except people don't treat it as subjective---they treat it as absolute. And their stance generally depends on whether they supported Bush or Gore

[Myrtle]

except people don't treat it as subjective---they treat it as absolute. And their stance generally depends on whether they supported Bush or Gore

Ironic, considering you treat pretty much everything you say as absolute, leaving no room for discussion. :jagoff:

[Palehose13]

except people don't treat it as subjective---they treat it as absolute. And their stance generally depends on whether they supported Bush or Gore

I voted for Perot. :shrug:

[Palehose13]

Ironic, considering you treat pretty much everything you say as absolute, leaving no room for discussion. :jagoff:

:owned:

[fquaye14ten]

Ironic, considering you treat pretty much everything you say as absolute, leaving no room for discussion. :jagoff:

too bad i'm either

a.) tongue in cheek

or

b.) discussing a topic where evidence can be given.

What possible evidence can you give that the electoral college should be abolished?
It's a fucking arbitrary decision the founding fathers made based on what they thought would work best.

[Myrtle]

What possible evidence can you give that the electoral college should be abolished?

Do you really want me to answer that?

[fquaye14ten]

Do you really want me to answer that?

no, because I know what you're going to say.

And then someone else is going to say that the US is not a direct democracy---it's a representative democracy, which is likewise an arbitrary decision the founding fathers made.

[fquaye14ten]

or if you don't say that you'll say the other thing

at which point it must be pointed out that the public is not much more informed than they once were, and if anything the way the news outlets spin things makes it more dangerous to give the common person more power.

which is also neither true nor false. however we might as well debate abortion (which i see we already have:rolleyes: )

[fquaye14ten]

Can't we just have a RELEVANT discussion, like whether the Velvet Underground or MC5 invented punk rock?

[1951Campbell]

let's talk about whether McCain is obsequious or principled.

I tend to like McCain. Thoughts?

McCain sucks.

He's pimping the War in Iraq and McCain/Feingold guts the 1st Amendment.

Next candidate. :D

[1951Campbell]

Can't we just have a RELEVANT discussion, like whether the Velvet Underground or MC5 invented punk rock?

The correct answer is: The Who.

Next question. :D

[CaptainBallz]

or if you don't say that you'll say the other thing

at which point it must be pointed out that the public is not much more informed than they once were, and if anything the way the news outlets spin things makes it more dangerous to give the common person more power.

which is also neither true nor false. however we might as well debate abortion (which i see we already have:rolleyes: )

Why don't you cry about it...?

[fquaye14ten]

The correct answer is: The Who.

Next question. :D

u think ur sew smard

[Myrtle]

or if you don't say that you'll say the other thing

at which point it must be pointed out that the public is not much more informed than they once were, and if anything the way the news outlets spin things makes it more dangerous to give the common person more power.

which is also neither true nor false. however we might as well debate abortion (which i see we already have:rolleyes: )

I like how you're arguing with yourself now... it's cute.

I won't get too far into the discussion, but I guess your opinion on the electoral college does in fact depend on how you define democracy. While most forms of government are great in theory, it's obviously much harder to implement theories and ideas to a large group of people, like freedom of speech or democracy. So, with that said, I understand that I'm never going to be 100% satisfied with how the elections are run; however, I just don't understand the point of the electoral college at all. It just seems so fundamentally illogical to call this country a democracy and then have Gore win an extra 50,000 votes but not become president.

So, my bottom line is, sure, I understand people have different opinions about the way the government is run - but this particular issue speaks to the most fundamental aspects of our government and that's why I think people are so "absolute" on this issue.

[1951Campbell]

I like how you're arguing with yourself now... it's cute.

It just seems so fundamentally illogical to call this country a democracy and then have Gore win an extra 50,000 votes but not become president.


That's because it's a republic, not a democracy. :whistle:

[fquaye14ten]

That's because it's a republic, not a democracy. :whistle:

which in itself is an arbitrary decision made by the founding fathers. neither wrong or right inherently, but the rules we have agreed to live by by living in this country.

[fquaye14ten]

I just don't understand the point of the electoral college at all.

I guess I overestimated the arguments you would bring to the table.

Many times, though, the electors are simply important persons whose wisdom, it is hoped, would provide a better choice than a larger body.

comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_college

this is the general idea behind the electoral college---in the days of the founding fathers, electors would be better served to make the correct choice. They were a buffer between an uninformed (by necessity---national press was a glint in its mother's eye at this point) public and an unacceptable president.

The chief arguments against it are both the one you brought up (hence: is this a democracy. Unfortunately for this argument, Myrtle is, it is not)

The secondary argument is: times have changed. There's no need for a "wise" electorate. However, like I said, television and print news are fucking psychotic---they want good tv and swift boat veterans for truth is proof of that. The public merely thinks they are more informed now than they were before and that is a dangerous thing.

Prime example: "I invented the internet". Did Gore say that? Most people think he did. Why? Because of the media. Al Gore did not say that. Al Gore said "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet"

http://sethf.com/gore/

This is a terrible twist by the media to turn a perfectly truthful statement by Gore into a grandiose statement of misguided egocentrism.

And this effected the popular vote. I would rather the public be uninformed. However, that doesn't mean that the electoral college must stay. It's an arbitrary distinction with no inherent right or wrong to it.

[Myrtle]

I guess I overestimated the arguments you would bring to the table.


I held back most of my arguments against it because you said you didn't want to discuss it. My point in that post was more for the idea of why people are so opinionated about the electoral college.

And again, I think I'll leave it at that because I don't feel like arguing with someone who feels his opinions are absolute. :)

[fquaye14ten]

I held back most of my arguments against it because you said you didn't want to discuss it. My point in that post was more for the idea of why people are so opinionated about the electoral college.

And again, I think I'll leave it at that because I don't feel like arguing with someone who feels his opinions are absolute. :)

the only absolute opinion i hold without a trace of irony is that myrtle's opinions are re-dick-you-liss:cool:

[Myrtle]

the only absolute opinion i hold without a trace of irony is that myrtle's opinions are re-dick-you-liss:cool:

:D

I love this politics forum.

[maurice]

Yes yes yes, the Electoral College sucks, Florida state government is corrupt, Justice Scalia is a partisan hack, and so on and so forth . . .

Yet, if Gore were a half-way decent candidate, he wouldn't need to win Florida. He was running against a transparent, borderline-retarded, alcoholic, coke-snorting draft-dodger, yet he couldn't even win his home state.

I agree that Kerry sucks as a candidate, but that does not change the fact that Gore also sucks.

[CaptainBallz]

Yes yes yes, the Electoral College sucks, Florida state government is corrupt, Justice Scalia is a partisan hack, and so on and so forth . . .

Yet, if Gore were a half-way decent candidate, he wouldn't need to win Florida. He was running against a transparent, borderline-retarded, alcoholic, coke-snorting draft-dodger, yet he couldn't even win his home state.

I agree that Kerry sucks as a candidate, but that does not change the fact that Gore also sucks.

It would also help if half the country wasn't boderline retarded.

[getonbckthr]

Honestly none of the above, but if it was 1 of the above it would be Mccain.

[1951Campbell]

It would also help if half the country wasn't boderline retarded.


Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you is borderline retarded. :jagoff:

[Chips1]

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you is borderline retarded. :jagoff:

Count me in the bordlerline retarded then.

:jagoff: Indeed.

[Palehose13]

It would also help if half the country wasn't boderline retarded.

QFT

Count me in the bordlerline retarded then.

Double QFT

[CaptainBallz]

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you is borderline retarded. :jagoff:

When it comes to #43, Yes. Yes. Fucking. Yes... RE-TAR-DED.

See v

Count me in the bordlerline retarded then.

[1951Campbell]

When it comes to #43, Yes. Yes. Fucking. Yes... RE-TAR-DED.

See v

That was fquaye's rather innocous post.

Or do you mean Richard Petty? :confused:

[CaptainBallz]

That was fquaye's rather innocous post.

Or do you mean Richard Petty? :confused:

Oooops, I meant President #43.



or Richard Petty...:cool:


or fquaye for that matter....

[Prope]

I'm saying Gore won Florida.
As a Gore fan, I have always hated the Florida argument, because he didn't win in other places that mattered either.
2000 New Hampshire Primary
Gore - 49.73%
Bradley - 45.59%

McCain - 48.53%
Bush - 30.36%

2000 General Election in New Hampshire
Bush - 48%
Gore - 47%
Nader - 4%

How Bush goes from only taking 30% in the Republican primary to 48% in the general shows how bad Gore actually was. Nader should not have been a factor.

[StockdaleforVeep]

Thanks, Hancock...

I'm saying Gore won Florida.

and cub fans say they won the world series if not for bartman

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/misawa4life/cubsownedsmall.gif

[StockdaleforVeep]

McCain sucks.

He's pimping the War in Iraq and McCain/Feingold guts the 1st Amendment.

Next candidate. :D

How, by saying it doesnt protect hate groups?

[StockdaleforVeep]

Yes yes yes, the Electoral College sucks, Florida state government is corrupt, Justice Scalia is a partisan hack, and so on and so forth . . .

Yet, if Gore were a half-way decent candidate, he wouldn't need to win Florida. He was running against a transparent, borderline-retarded, alcoholic, coke-snorting draft-dodger, yet he couldn't even win his home state.

I agree that Kerry sucks as a candidate, but that does not change the fact that Gore also sucks.

and gore has the persona of zoso freebasing clerasil

[StockdaleforVeep]

Oooops, I meant President #43.



or Richard Petty...:cool:


or fquaye for that matter....

Its all about matt kenseth bitches

[Chips1]

As a Gore fan, I have always hated the Florida argument, because he didn't win in other places that mattered either.
2000 New Hampshire Primary
Gore - 49.73%
Bradley - 45.59%

McCain - 48.53%
Bush - 30.36%

2000 General Election in New Hampshire
Bush - 48%
Gore - 47%
Nader - 4%

How Bush goes from only taking 30% in the Republican primary to 48% in the general shows how bad Gore actually was. Nader should not have been a factor.

Because 236,000+ people voted in the Republican primary as opposed to somewhere around 150,000 people in the Democratic primary.

[maurice]

How, by saying it doesnt protect hate groups?

To a libertarian, McCain/Feingold guts the 1st Amendment by preventing individuals from exercising their right to political speech by donating boatloads of cash any way they see fit.

[StockdaleforVeep]

To a libertarian, McCain/Feingold guts the 1st Amendment by preventing individuals from exercising their right to political speech by donating boatloads of cash any way they see fit.


Ive stated before, after watchin the last libertarian primary, they terrify me more than a radical democrat in office

[1951Campbell]

Oooops, I meant President #43.



or Richard Petty...:cool:


or fquaye for that matter....

Oy vey...I am retarded. :o

[1951Campbell]

To a libertarian, McCain/Feingold guts the 1st Amendment by preventing individuals from exercising their right to political speech by donating boatloads of cash any way they see fit.

It also prevents certain political ads from being run close to elections, which is a huge hole in the 1st Amendment, if you ask me.

[samram]

It also prevents certain political ads from being run close to elections, which is a huge hole in the 1st Amendment, if you ask me.

What better way to make sure incumbents stay in office? Well, other than gerrymandering.

[maurice]

the last libertarian primary

"Libertarian" =/= "libertarian." The small-L libertarians I'm talking about don't have primaries. I'm talking about the political philosophy, not the wacko political party.

[StockdaleforVeep]

"Libertarian" =/= "libertarian." The small-L libertarians I'm talking about don't have primaries. I'm talking about the political philosophy, not the wacko political party.

Understood and apologizing then.

[The Dude]

John McCain in 08

Eat it Chips!